丁香园AV

CT: Yeah, the studio space at 611 Alexander Studios is huge for the visual art undergrads and the MFA students. It's something that I also really appreciate. So, how did your practice develop in your undergrad?

MS: I think it was the first place where I was really starting to explore making art that had, you know, my Indigenous identity included. I wasn't doing that in first year. I started a little bit in second year, but I remember it being kind of hard. I remember doing one project that was about residential schools, and at that time 鈥� 2001 or 2000 鈥� it was like nobody knew what I was talking about. Truth and Reconciliation hadn't happened, and nobody had any idea. I explained it to them, and they were kind of like, 鈥淥h, so like a boarding school?鈥� It was hard to not, you know, have that kind of knowledge. Even faculty didn't know what I was talking about. I guess at that time, why would they? But when I went to 丁香园AV I started to specifically explore my family identity. That was more comfortable to me. Jin-me was really supportive of me doing that, I think because she鈥檚 Korean. She was non-white faculty, the first one I'd worked with. She really encouraged me to explore that, and to find ways to write about it, because it was still really new for me. She was really great about introducing me to other Indigenous artists. She would bring in guest artists who would give talks, and then make sure I got a special little audience with them, as well, before they left 鈥� like, 鈥淗ey, this is , this is , and this is our Indigenous student. Come say hi!鈥� It was really nice to have those opportunities that I hadn't had before.

CT: So that was like a big part of your journey: having faculty connect you to people that might inspire you or push your work further and forward? 

MS: Absolutely. Even just introducing us to their work, because it wasn't something that was taught. Brian Jungen and Rebecca Belmore, at the time, were still relatively new. They weren鈥檛 something that we were learning about in our art history and contemporary arts classes. Brian hadn't won the Sobey yet, or anything. They'd been working for a while, but they weren't being taught in class. It was nice to be exposed to really contemporary artists that I wouldn't have known about. I remember Jin-me introduced me to the work of , as well, and she鈥檚 so important to my practice, I feel. It was nice to have someone see things in your work, and to think about who you could learn from, who you could be inspired by.

CT: I think it's really important to make those connections and to build those relationships within the art community and the Indigenous art community, and to find people that can help push and carry you. You started at the SCA, you studied at Emily Carr, you did your time out of school, and now you're free in the world as a working artist. You just finished up a residency 鈥� your most recent residency, not your only one 鈥� at UBC Okanagan. How did that develop?

MS: When I finished my undergrad, I was pretty burnt out. I'd been in school for six years, so I didn't want to do anything. I thought I was going to work in galleries. I had been on the board of an Artist Run Center, and I realized that I didn't want to work in galleries. I didn't want to have to write grants to keep my job, and stuff like that. So, I took a break. I had my son and I remember wondering if I was ever going to make art again. I hadn't really had a practice before I had my son, and then it seemed impossible to make art with a young baby. I decided to get my masters degree and went to Emily Carr. I went there specifically because, at the time, they had Indigenous faculty, which I had never had the experience of working with before. Unfortunately, right when I started, both of them left. They moved to New York. [Laughter] Of course! So, I did my degree, and I was a single mom at the time 鈥� it was like a lot of work. When I was done, I was still 鈥� it's still really hard to find time to make work when you're a single parent and working, and he was still a toddler. So, it took a few years for me to make a lot of work. I was making some work, but I was aware that it was not enough for a solo show, or anything like that. It was a couple of pieces a year, really small ones. It wasn't until probably 2018 鈥� it was already seven years after my degree that I finished my masters 鈥� that I was able to start to make a full body of work again, which has been great. I've had lots of shows and have been invited to residencies since then. But having the opportunity to be part of the Indigenous Art Intensive at UBC Okanagan was so awesome for me. It was so nice to be recognized in that way by that organization. There鈥檙e so many great artists that they invite there. To be one of them was 鈥� it鈥檚 really nice to be recognized and included in that way with the Indigenous arts community. Especially with , because we鈥檙e the same age. I remember her from when I was doing my studies. We weren't in the same school, or anything, but I remember her being one of the few artists around my age that were working, you know? It was nice to get to spend some time with her. 

MS: Yeah, it's definitely hard. I just got so tired of that expectation, that I was supposed to be teaching someone something. It's not my job to be the history teacher, you know? Canadians should know their own Canadian history. For a lot of Canadians, they think Indigenous history is this separate thing, right? It doesn't involve them, or they don't have to know about it. But it was all done for their benefit, right? We didn't put ourselves through residential schools and make ourselves do that. [Laughter] It was the Canadian government and policy. So many people think it doesn't involve them, but it obviously does. I mean, if you think about it, for sure it does. I just think that 鈥� I shouldn't have to be teaching people that, you know? I shouldn't have to have work that is explaining what the history is. You should already know. Or, if you're looking at these works, maybe you're thinking something like, 鈥淵eah, why don't I know that? I should go look that up.鈥� I'm not going to give it to you, you have to do some of the work, as well, as the viewer. You know, 鈥淕oogle's free and I'm going to look up what this is.鈥�

CT: Yeah, it's not. And the work doesn't imply that you're open to being someone's educational kiosk, or something like that, right? [Laughter] It's not what it's for. And I wonder about the positionality that Indigenous students, artists, faculty are sometimes put in: to kind of carry that burden a bit further. Or, you know 鈥� it鈥檚 really just another shared Indigenous experience. Multi nation, intertribal. [Laughter] It's complicated, and it's still ongoing. So, I think that's why it's so important that artists like yourself, and new and emerging like myself, continue to make their work 鈥� whatever that work is. I think it's totally valid, as well, for artists to make work about their residential school experience, and whatever else. But that's separate from me articulating it, right?

MS: Absolutely. When I think back to when I was a student, like I said, there were no other Indigenous students until I got to 丁香园AV. It was just one other student 鈥� Heather. We were constantly having to explain something, you know what I mean? Like a weaving, or something. You were just constantly having to explain. Or people would look to you, you know? Like, 鈥淚'm not going to ask you, but we're all just going to stare at you now as the Indigenous kid in class to expand upon this.鈥� Or even sometimes, you were doing work that wasn't, in your mind, about being Indigenous, and everyone read it that way. And you're like, 鈥淣o, that's not what I was talking about.鈥� But I鈥檓 Indigenous, so you're all going to read it as鈥� I did piece about memory, and everyone responded to it in the crits about it being about Indigenous experience, and I was like, 鈥淭hat was not at all what was happening there.鈥� That was always really frustrating in crits. Crits are a whole other kind of nightmare for Indigenous students, right? You have to decide how much you're giving, right? How much information you're giving. It's usually the weird thing of people asking you so many questions that maybe aren't even related 鈥� they ask you all these things. Or there's total silence, right? Nobody wants to say anything. Nobody knows how to respond. Yeah 鈥� that鈥檚 usually how it goes, from my undergrad and my masters degree. It was so frustrating, because, you know, you've made this work, it's on the wall, and there's dead silence. Especially in my masters degree. I don't know how it is in your program, but our crits were an hour long for each person, and they were painful for me, because it was like pulling teeth to get anybody to talk.

CT: Yeah, there's a certain fear about engaging with it 鈥� and then being put in that position to be an educator. Crits鈥� [Laughter]

MS: Yeah, it鈥檚 frustrating that it still happens. And I know it still happens: I worked at Emily Carr for many years, and at the end of every semester, Indigenous students were coming in and complaining about their classes. That really has to be led by faculty. I would appreciate it, even, if faculty would鈥檝e just talked about aesthetics, because so many of them don't know how to lead the conversation, and they just let these awkward silences fill up the crit. [Laughter] And I'm like 鈥� talk about something! Encourage some type of question! It was so weird how it was just for Indigenous students. Suddenly, they didn't know how to prompt the class, you know? Like, yeah 鈥� start with 鈥淲hat are we looking at? What are the materials?鈥� Start somewhere! [Laughter]

CT: Yeah! 鈥淲hat are the trends in themes we've seen in Michele's work previously?鈥�

MS: Yes! [Laughter] It's just, dead silence. It鈥檚 just so painful. And it really did only happen with Indigenous students, you know? Everyone was able to talk about anything else with anyone, and it was just like鈥� Please say something. [Laughter]

CT: Yeah, yeah鈥� I know now it's pretty commonplace for universities to have Indigenous access programs, and things in place to kind of generate admissions for Indigenous peoples. At that time, I don't think there would have been any programs like that, hey?

MS: No, not at all. I do not remember those happening. I do remember those happening when I worked at Emily Carr, but that was probably ten years later. But definitely: there was not Indigenous recruitment. There was usually not even Indigenous content in any of the classes. Like, you know 鈥� we had to take all those SCA contemporary art history classes, and stuff. And there was there was very, very little Indigenous content in those classes, which is still a problem. There were definitely not pathways into university. I feel like it was really hard for students to get the support they needed. There weren't even AGP spaces 鈥� I think you might call them Indigenous student centers at 丁香园AV. Those didn't exist at all. The one at Emily Carr opened the last year of my masters, and it was a big deal, because that was the first time I got to meet other Indigenous students, and to have a place to hang out, have some events, and get to feel like part of a community there, which had completely not existed before for me. Especially, being in the masters, which, again, was this really small cohort, and I was the only Indigenous student.