間眅埶AV

A New Radermacher

A New Radermacher / E. Dissoi Logoi

E. Dissoi Logoi: Two-Fold or Contrasting Arguments

This text is not in Radermacher's edition.

(1) 庰廔 廒帠帢庛彃 庥帢廔 庥帢庥彃   

  (1) 庣怷廔 弇帠怷庣 弇峟帠怷彖帢庣 廒彖 彄僇 廒弇弇峎帤庣 廔廔 彃僇 庣弇怷怷怷彖彖 庰廔 彃 廒帠帢庛彃 庥帢廔 彃 庥帢庥彃. 怷廔 弮廔統 帠廔區 弇峟帠怷彖庣, 廔＋ 廒弇弇怷 弮峟彖 廒庣 廔 廒帠帢庛彖, 廒弇弇怷 帤廔 廔 庥帢庥彖繚 怷廔 帤峟, 廔＋ 廔 帢廔 廒庣, 庥帢廔 怷彃 弮廔統 廒帠帢庛廔裕 庰廒棒, 怷彃 帤廔 庥帢庥彖, 庥帢廔 彃僇 帢廔彃僇 廒彖庛庣 怷廔 弮廔統 廒帠帢庛彖, 怷廔 帤廔 庥帢庥彖.

(2) 廒帠廔 帤廔 庥帢廔 帢廔廔裒 怷彃帤庰 怷庣巹庛庰弮帢庣繚 庥峟怷弮帢庣 帤廔 廒庥 彃 廒彖庛巹彖 帣巹, 廔形 廒庣弮庰弇廔紮 帣庣 庰 庥帢廔 庣怷 庥帢廔 廒怷帤庣巹彖繚 帢彃羊帢 帠廔區 廒庛庰彖怷彃缶誕庣 弮廔統 庥帢庥彖, 廔帠庣帢巹彖怷彖庣 帤廔 庥帢廔 帤庰怷弮峟彖庣 廒帠帢庛彖.

(3) 庥帢廔 廒庥帢巹帢 怷巹彖彖 怷彖 怷彃 弮廔統 廒庥帢峟庣 庥帢庥彖, 怷彃 帤廔 弇庰彃缶誕庣 帢彃羊帢 庥帢廔 弮庣庛帢彖峟怷彖庣 廒帠帢庛彖. 彖怷 怷巹彖彖 怷彃 弮廔統 廒庛庰彖庰彃缶誕庣 庥帢庥彖, 怷彃 帤廔 廒匿救怷彃 廒帠帢庛彖. 廔 怷巹彖彖 庛峎彖帢怷 怷彃 弮廔統 廒怷庛帢彖怷彃羊庣 庥帢庥彖, 怷彃 帤 廒彖帢庣怷弇帢庣 庥帢廔 弮帣怷怷庣怷彃 廒帠帢庛彖.

(4) 帠庰帠巹帢 庰 庥帢弇彃剿 廒徆庰彖庰巹庥帢帢 廔樞 庥帢廔樞 怷彃 弮廔統 帠庰帠怷彃 廒帠帢庛彖, 怷彃 帤廔 廒弮怷庣 庥帢庥彖. 廔區 怷巹彖彖 廔弇庥峎帤帢 彖巹帣庰庛帢庣 庥帢廔 帢帢庛帢庰庛帢庣 彃僇 弮廔統 彖帢庥弇峸庣 庥帢庥彖, 怷彃 帤廔 彖帢帢帠怷彃 廒帠帢庛彖.

(5) 廒庣 帤廔 廔裕 巹帤帢怷彖 庥帢峟庛庰庛帢庣 庥帢廔 廒弮帣弇彖庰庛帢庣 庥帢廔 彖巹帣庰庛帢庣 怷彃 弮廔統 廒弇弇怷庣 庥帢庥彖, 彃僇 帤廔 帢弇庥彃庣 廒帠帢庛彖. 庥帢廔 弮廔匿 廔裕 庥峟帢弮怷彖 帢帢庛帢庰庛帢庣 怷彃 弮廔統 廒弇弇怷庣 庥帢庥彖, 怷彃 帤廔 庥庰帢弮庰彃羊庣彖 廒帠帢庛彖. 廔 帤廔 廔怷帤峸弮帢帢 庥帢帢巹帣庰庛帢庣 庥帢廔 帤庣帢峸帠彖庛帢庣 怷彃 弮廔統 廒弇弇怷庣 庥帢庥彖, 彃僇 帤廔 庥彃庣 廒帠帢庛彖.

(6) 廒彖 怷巹彖彖 怷彃 廒帠彃剿庣 怷彃 帠弮彖庣庥怷彃 庥帢廔 怷彃 弮庣庥怷彃 庥帢廔 怷彃 怷弇庰弮庣庥怷彃繚 帢廔巹庥帢 廒彖 彃僇 帠弮彖庣庥彃僇 彃僇 帢帤庣怷帤弮庣 廒 彖巹庥帢 彃僇 弮廔統 彖庣庥彃僇誕庣 廒帠帢庛彖, 怷彃 帤廔 廒＋帢-弮峟彖怷庣 庥帢庥彖.

(7) 庥帢廔廔 帤廔 庥帢廔 怷廔 帢弇帢庣帢廔 庥帢廔 庥帢庣 庥帢廔 怷廔 廒弇弇怷庣 峎彖庰 弮庣庥怷巹繚 帢廔巹庥帢 廒 彖巹庥帢 廒 庥庣庛帢庣帤巹帢 彃僇 弮廔統 彖庣庥彃僇誕庣 廒帠帢庛彖, 怷彃 帤廔 廒＋帢弮峟彖怷庣 庥帢庥彖.

(8) 廒彖 庰 彃僇 怷弇峟弮庣 (庥帢廔 廔 彖庰帢帢 彃剿怷彖 廒彃) 廒 彃僇 帢庥庰帤帢庣弮怷彖巹彖 彖巹庥帢, 廒彖 廒彖巹庥彖 廒庛庢彖帢巹 庥帢廔 廔樞 弮弮峎, 帢庥庰帤帢庣弮怷彖巹怷庣 弮廔統 廒帠帢庛彖, 廒庛庢彖帢巹怷庣 帤廔 庥帢廔 怷彃 弮弮峎怷庣 庥帢庥彖繚 廒 庰 彖巹庥帢, 廒彖 怷廔 廒弇弇帢彖庰 廔裕 峟帢彖 廒彖巹庥帢帢彖, 怷彃 弮廔統 廒弇弇帢庣彖 廒帠帢庛彖, 怷彃 帤廔 帣帢帣峎怷庣 庥帢庥彖.

(9) 廒 怷巹彖彖 怷彃 廒裕銜翁諫 帢廒舜庰庣 怷彃 弮廔統 廒帢庣怷彃 廒帠帢庛彖, 怷彃 帤廔 峇廔 庥帢庥彖. 庥帢帤帤廔 帢廔廔裕 庥帢廔 廔 彃僇 庢帣帢巹彖 庥帢廔 廔 彃僇 廒帠庰巹彖 峎庛庢.

 

(10) 庥帢廔 廒 彃僇 庰彖帢彖 庥帢廔 帢庣庛彄僇 弮峎帢 怷彃 弮廔統 帢巹庛帢庣 廒帠帢庛彖, 怷彃 帤廔 庰彖帢怷庣 庥帢庥彖. 庥帢廔 弮廔匿 庥帢廔 廒 彃僇 庛庰彃僇 庥帢廔 庣帠峎彖彖 弇庰帠怷弮峟彖帢 弮峎帢 庥帢廔 彖巹庥帢 怷彃 弮廔統 庛庰怷彃 廒帠帢庛彖, 怷彃 帤廔 巹帠帢庣 庥帢庥彖.

(11) 廒弇弇怷 帤廔 弇帠怷 弇峟帠庰帢庣, 廔＋ 廒弇弇怷 弮廔統 廒帠帢庛廔裕 庰廒棒, 廒弇弇怷 帤廔 廔 庥帢庥彖, 帤庣帢峟怷彖 廔甩庰 庥帢廔 廔及誕弮帢, 怷廔 庥帢廔 廔 彄僇割樁.   廒帠廔 帤廔 庥帢廔 帢廔廔裒 怷彃羊怷彖 帤庣帢庣庰彃缶樁敖 廔裕 怷彖繚 帤怷庥彃 帠廔區 怷廔帤廔 帤庣峎帤帢弇彖 <庥> 廒缶樁舒, 怷彃怷彖 廒帠帢庛廔裕 庥帢廔 怷彃怷彖 庥帢庥彖, 帢廒 廔 帢廔廔 庥帢廔 弮廔 廒弇弇怷 廒庥峎庰怷彖 庰廒棒溘 庥帢廔 帠廔區 庛帢弮帢彖 庥 庰廒棒.

(12) 怷廒僇樁敖 帤廔 怷廔帤峟 庥 帢廔廔裕 廒庰彖 廒怷庥巹彖帢庛帢庣, 帢廒 庣 [帢廔廔裕稽 廒怷庣怷 廔裕 帢彃羊帢 弇峟帠怷彖帢繚 庰廒剿怷彖 帤峸 弮怷庣, 廒及棒 庣 怷廔 帠怷彖峟庰 廒帠帢庛廔裕 廒怷巹庢帢彖; 帢巹庢 庥帢繚 庥帢廔 怷弇弇廔 庥帢廔 弮庰帠峎弇帢. 廔 廒帢 庥帢庥廔 庥帢廔 弮庰帠峎弇帢 庥帢廔 怷弇弇廔 怷怷庣 廔庰巹弇庰庣, 帢廒棲庰 廔彖 廒庣 廔 廒帠帢庛廔裕 彃僇 庥帢庥彃僇.

 

(13) 巹 帤峟, 廔樞 帠帠庰彖峟帢 廒及棒 庣 廒帠帢庛廔裕 廒怷巹庢帢; 廔樞 廒帢 帠帠庰彖峟帢 庥帢庥廔裕 廒怷巹庰庣. 巹 帤峟, 廔樞 廒庛廔樞 廒及棒 庥帢庥廔裕 廒怷巹庢帢; 庥帢廔 怷弇弇廔 庥帢廔 <弮庰帠峎弇帢>. 弮峟帠庣帢 廒帢 廒帠帢庛廔 廒怷巹庢帢.

(14) 廒帠庰 帤峸 弮怷庣 庥帢廔 帤庰 廒庥庣彖帢庣. 廒弇弇怷 庣 廒 廔樞 廔樞 怷廒匿磁巹庰庣, 廔庣 怷弇弇廔 庥帢廔 庥帢庥廔 廒怷彖庣, <庥帢廔> 峎弇庣彖 庰廔帤帢庣弮怷彖巹庤庰庣,  廔庣 怷弇弇廔 庥帢廔 廒帠帢庛廔 峎怷彖庣, 帢廒棲庰 廔廔 庥帢庥廔裕 庥帢廔 廒帠帢庛彖;

 

(15) 廔裕 帤廔 帣帢庣弇彃 廔裕 弮峟帠帢彖 怷廔帤廔統 庥弇庰庣 廔弮怷巹 帤庣帢庥庰彃庛帢庣 怷彃 怷彃. 廔 帠廔區 怷弇弇廔 庥帢廔 弮庰帠峎弇帢 廒帠帢庛廔 帢廔彃僇 怷弇弇廔 庥帢庥廔 庥帢廔 弮庰帠峎弇帢 廒巹彖, 帢廒 帠帢 廔彖 廒庣彖 廒帠帢庛廔裕 庥帢廔 庥帢庥彖. 庥帢廔 峎帤庰 弮廔統 庰廔 彃 帢彖廔裒 庰廒區峸庛.

(16) 庰廒僇樁 帤廔 庥帢廔 庥帢庛 廒庥帢怷彖 廒徆峎弮庰彖怷 廒廔 彃 廒庛巹庰彖 庥帢廔 彃彖庰彖 庥帢廔 廒怷帤庣庣峎庤庰彖. 帢彃羊帢 帠廔區 怷彃 廒庛庰彖庰彃缶誕庣 <怷庣廔統 庥帢庥彖, 庥帢廔 峎弇庣彖> 帢彃羊帢 怷庣廔統 廒帠帢庛彖 廒庣彖 帢廔怷彃, 帢廒棲庰 廔彖 廒庣彖 廒帠帢庛廔裕 庥帢廔 庥帢庥彖繚 庥帢廔 怷彃 彖怷峟怷彖庣 庥帢庥彖 廒庣 廔 彖怷庰彃彖 庥帢廔 廒帠帢庛彖, 帢廒棲庰 廔彖 廒庣 廔 廒帠帢庛廔裕 彃僇 庥帢庥彃僇.

(17) 庥帢帤帤廔 帤庰 庥帢廔 廒弇弇帢 峎彖帢, 廔 廒彖 彃僇 廒弮怷庛庰彖 弇帠庣 庰廒棲庢帢庣. 庥帢廔 怷廔 弇峟帠, 巹 廒庣 廔 廒帠帢庛彖, 廒弇弇廔 怷彃羊怷 庰庣彃僇樁敖 帤庣帤峎庥庰庣彖, 廔＋ 怷廔 廔廔裕 庰廒棒 廔 庥帢庥廔裕 庥帢廔 廒帠帢庛彖, 廒弇弇 <廒弇弇怷> 廒庥峎庰怷彖.   

 

1. On good and bad


(1) On the matter of what is good and what is bad dissoi logoi are put forward in Greece by the philosophical: some say that what is good is one thing and what is bad is another, others that they are the same, for some good and for others bad, and for the same person at one time good, at another bad.

(2) I myself side with the latter, and I shall examine (the logos) by reference to human life, with its concern for food and drink and sex. For these things are bad for the weak, but good for the healthy and in need.


(3) And again, lack of control over these is bad for the uncontrolled, but good for those who sell these things and make money. And again illness is bad for the sick but good for doctors. And again death is bad for those who die, but good for undertakers and the grave-diggers.

(4) Farming also, when it produces fine crops, is good for the farmers, but bad for the merchants. And it is bad for the shipper if his ships are wrecked and smashed, but good for shipbuilders.


(5) Moreover, it is bad for others, but good for the blacksmith if iron is dulled and wrecked. And certainly it is bad for others, but good for the potters if pottery is smashed. And it is bad for others, but good for the cobbler if shoes wear out and are torn apart.


(6) Again, in contests, gymnastic, artistic, and military; for example, in gymnastic for the runner, victory is good for the winner, but bad for the losers.

(7) And it is the same for wrestlers and boxers and all the artists; for example, lyre-playing is good for the winner, but bad for the losers.

(8) And in war (I shall speak first of the most recent events) the Spartan victory which they won over the Athenians and their allies was good for the Spartans, but bad for the Athenians and their allies; and the victory which the Greeks won over the Persians was good for the Greeks, but bad for the non-Greeks.

(9) Again, the capture of Troy was good for the Achaeans, but bad for the Trojans. And it is the same with the experiences of the Thebans and the Argives.


(10) And the battle between the Centaurs and Lapiths was good for the Lapiths, but bad for the Centaurs. And it certainly the fabled battle of the gods and Giants and victory was for the gods good, but bad for the Giants.


(11) The other logos is that what is good is one thing and what is bad another; just as the name differs, so also does the matter. I myself also distinguish them in this manner. For I think it is not clear what sort of thing would be good and what bad if each were the same thing and not different; it would be astonishing indeed.

(12) And I think that even the man who says these things could not answer if someone asked: "Tell me now, did you ever before now do your parents some good?" He might say, "A great many good things." "So you ought to do them a great many bad things, if good is the same as bad.


(13) What then, did you ever before now do your relatives any good? So you did your relatives bad. What then, did you ever do your enemies bad? A great many bad things. So you did them great good.


(14) And please answer me this as well: Dont you pity the poor because they have it very bad and again congratulate them for being well off, if the same thing is good and bad?"

(15) And nothing prevents the Great King from being in the same condition as beggars. For the many great things for him are also many great evils, if the same thing is good and bad. And let this be said for every case.

 

(16) But I shall also go through individually, beginning with eating and drinking and sex. For, these things do bad for the sick, and again they do good for them, if good and bad are the same. For the sick person it is bad to be sick as well as good, if good is the same as bad.

(17) Everything else has been mentioned in the above logos this holds good. I am not saying what the good is; I am trying rather to teach that bad and good are not the same thing, but that each is different.

2. 庰廔 庥帢弇怷彃 庥帢廔 帢廒區怷彃  

  (1) 弇峟帠怷彖帢庣 帤廔 庥帢廔 庰廔 彃 庥帢弇彃 庥帢廔 彃 帢廒區彃 帤庣怷廔 弇帠怷庣. 怷廔 弮廔統 帠峎 帢彖庣, 廒弇弇怷 弮廔統 廒缶樁舒 廔 庥帢弇彖, 廒弇弇怷 帤廔 廔 帢廒區彖, 帤庣帢峟怷彖, 廔甩庰 庥帢廔 廔及誕弮帢, 怷廔 庥帢廔 廔 彃僇樁授 怷廔 帤廔 廔廔 庥帢弇廔裕 庥帢廔 帢廒區彖.

(2) 庥廒帠廔 庰庣帢庰彃缶樁敖, 彖帤庰 廔裕 怷彖 廒徆帢帠庰弮庰彖怷. 帢廔巹庥帢 帠廔區 帢庣帤廔 廔＋帢巹庣 廒帢彄僇 弮廔統 [庢彃僇鉛 帢巹庤庰庛帢庣 庥帢弇彖, 弮廔 廒帢彄僇 帤廔 [庥帢弇彃僇鉛 帢廒區彖.

(3) 庥帢廔 廔區 帠彖帢彃庥帢 弇怷彃羊庛帢庣 廒彖帤怷庣 庥帢弇彖, 廒彖 帢弇帢巹帢庣 帤廔 帢廒區彖 (廒弇弇廔 怷彃 廒彖帤峎庣彖 廒彖 帢弇帢巹帢庣 庥帢廔 廒彖 帠弮彖帢巹庣 庥帢弇彖).

(4) 庥帢廔 彖巹弮庰彖 彃僇 廒彖帤廔 廒彖 廒巹帢庣 弮廔統 庥帢弇彖, 廔怷 怷巹怷庣 庥庛峸庰帢庣繚 廒徆 帤廔 帢廒區彖, 廔怷 庣 廔庰帢庣.

(5) 庥帢廔 彃僇 弮廔統 帢廔彄剿 彖巹弮庰彖 廒彖帤廔 庥帢弇彖, 廒弇弇怷巹庣 帤廔 帢廒棲庣怷彖. 庥帢廔 彃僇 帠 廒彖帤廔 彄僇 弮廔統 廒帢彃 帠彖帢庣庥廔 彖巹弮庰彖 庥帢弇彖, 廒弇弇怷巹帢庣 帤廔 帢廒區彖.

(6) 庥帢廔 庥怷弮庰彃庛帢庣 庥帢廔 庣弮庛巹庣 巹庰庛帢庣 庥帢廔 巹帢 庰庣峎庰庛帢庣, 彃僇 弮廔統 廒彖帤廔 帢廒區彖, 彄僇 帤廔 帠彖帢庣庥廔 庥帢弇彖.

(7) 庥帢廔 廔樞 弮廔統 巹弇 庰廔 怷庣廔統 庥帢弇彖, 廔樞 帤廔 廒庛廔樞 帢廒區彖. 庥帢廔 廔樞 弮廔統 怷弇庰弮巹 庰帠庰彖 帢廒區彖, 廔樞 帤廔 廒彖 帢帤巹庣 廒彖帢帠彖庣廔區 庥帢弇彖.

(8) 庥帢廔 廔樞 弮廔統 巹弇 庥帢廔 廔樞 怷弇巹帢 怷彖庰庰彖 帢廒區彖, 廔樞 帤廔 怷弇庰弮巹 庥帢弇彖. 庥帢廔 峎帤庰 弮廔統 庰廔 峎彖彖.

(9) 庰廒僇樁 帤 <廒> 廒 帢廔 弇庣峟 庰 帢廒區廔 廒帠庢彖帢庣 庥帢廔 廔 廒庛彖庰帢. 帢廔巹庥帢 帢庥庰帤帢庣弮怷彖巹怷庣 廔區 庥帢 帠弮彖峎庤庰庛帢庣 <庥帢廔> 廒庰庣庣帤 庥帢廔 廒巹彖帢 帢峟庰彖 庥帢弇彖繚 廒樞庣 帤廔 帢廒區彖.

(10) 庥帢廔 怷彃 弮廔統 廔樞 帢彃帤帢 弮廔 弮帢彖庛峎彖庰庣彖 弮庣庥廔 庥帢廔 帠峎弮弮帢帢 庥帢弇彖. 廒樞庣 帤 帢廒區廔裕 弮廔 廒巹帢庛帢庣 帢彃羊帢 峎彖帢.

(11) 庰帢弇怷彃庣 帤廔 庥帢弇廔裕 廔樞 廒舜 廒庥 彄剿 廒帠峟弇帢 弇帢帣彖庣 帢廔彃僇 帤帢弮峎帢庣 庥帢廔 廔樞 廔峟帢繚 帣彃僇 庰 弇帢帣彖庣 帢廔彃僇 峎徆帢庣 庥帢廔 廒庥帤庰彃帢庣 庥帢廔 庥帢帢庥帢庣, 廒彖 峉庣庥庰弇巹帢庣 帤廔 帢廒區廔裕 庥帢廔 帤弇彖 廒帠帢.

(12) 帢庥庰帤庣 帤廔 庥帢弇廔裕 帤怷庥庰彃 廒缶樁舒 廔區 庥帢, 廔僇 廒彖帤廔 帠峎弮帢庛帢庣, 廒彄剿庛帢庣 庥帢廔 廒彖帤廔 帠帠巹彖庰庛帢庣, 廒庰廔 帤峟 庥帢 帠峎弮庢帢庣, 帢廒區彖繚 廒弇弇帢庣 帤 廒弮 帢廒區彖.

(13) 怷彃 帤廔 帢庣徆廔 庥弮怷 廔區 庥帢 巹庤庰庛帢庣繚 怷彃 帤 廒弇弇怷庣 庣弮巹帢 廔 巹帠弮帢帢 怷彃 廒帤庣庥峟怷彖庣. 怷廔 帤廔 峉庥庛帢庣 庥帢弇廔裕 彖怷弮巹庤怷彖庣, 廔 庥 廒彖帤帢 庥帢帢庥帢彖廔樁 廒庥帤庰巹帢 廔匿 庥庰帢弇廔匿 廔 弮廔統 庥弮庣怷彖 廔 怷彃 廒舜怷 怷彃庣, 廔 帤 廔峟怷彖 帢 <廒> 庥帢廔 廒帠帢 巹彖庢庣 廒徆 帢廔怷彃 庥帢廔 峟彖帤庢庣 怷彃 庛庰怷彃繚 廒彖 帤廔 怷彃 廒弇弇帢庣彖 怷廔帤峟 庥 廒 廔匿 帢廔廔匿 怷廒匿睡翁敖 彖庰庣庰弇庛庰彃彖 帣怷弇怷庣 庣 彃僇 帢彃羊帢 怷庣峸帢彖庣.

(14) 帢帢帠峟帢庣 帤廔 廔樞 帠怷彖峟帢 庥帢帢庥帢彖庰 庥帢峟庛怷彖庣, 庥帢廔 峎怷 庥峎弇弇庣怷 帤怷庥庰彃 廒缶樁舒 廒彖 怷彃 峟庥彖怷庣 庰庛峎庛帢庣繚 廒彖 帤廔 彄僇 廒弇弇峎帤庣 帢廒 庣 帢彃羊帢 怷庣峸帢庣, 廒徆庰弇帢庛庰廔剿 廒庥 彃 廒弇弇峎帤怷 庥帢庥彃剿 庥帢 廒怷庛峎彖怷庣 廔＋ 帢廒區廔 庥帢廔 帤庰庣彖廔 怷庣峟彖.

(15) 怷廔 帤廔 峟帢庣 庥怷弮庰彃庛帢庣 庰 廔甩庰 廔區 帠彖帢彃庥帢 庥帢廔 廔樞 廒彖帤帢 庥帢弇廔裕 彖怷弮巹庤怷彖庣, 庥帢廔 彄僇 庛帠帢廔 庥帢廔 彄僇 弮帢廔 庥帢廔 彄僇 廒帤庰弇彄僇 彖巹弮庰彖繚 怷廔 帤廔 廒弇弇帢彖庰 庥帢廔 帢廒區廔 庥帢廔 帢峎彖怷弮帢.

(16) 帤怷彃 怷巹彖彖 廔區 庥帢 怷彖庰庛庰巹帢 庥帢廔 廒帠庣怷彖 廒彖庰帠峎帢庛帢庣 庥帢廔 怷廔 帠峎弮帢庛帢庣 庥帢弇廔裕 帤怷庥庰彃 廒缶樁舒, 廒彖 帤廔 怷彃 廒弇弇帢庣彖 怷廔帤庰巹 庥帢 庛峟弇怷庣 帠彄僇樁敖.

(17) 廒匿剴庣怷巹 庰 怷廔 帢廔廔 彖怷弮巹庤怷彖庣 庥帢弇廔 怷彃 廒弇弇怷庣繚 彃庣帤庰 弮廔統 帠廔區 帠彖帢彃庥帢 廔帢巹彖庰庣彖 庥帢廔 廒庣帢 廒帠峎庤庰庛帢庣 庥帢弇彖, 廒弇弇廔 庢彖庰彃 廔樞 廒彖帤帢, 廔區 帤廔 帠彖帢彃庥帢 峎庰彖, 廒庰 彃庣帤庰 怷廔 廒彖帤庰. 廔裕 帢弇廔裕 帤庰庰庣彖 帢彃 庰巹, 廔裕 帤廔 彃怷彖 怷彃 怷巹, 峸彖怷庣 庥帢弇彖, 廒弇弇 廒弮廔僇 廔 廒彖帢彖巹怷彖.

(18) 怷廒僇樁敖 帤, 帢廒 庣 廔 帢廒區廔 廒 廒彖 庥庰弇庰怷庣 彖庰彖庰彃庥帢庣 峎彖帢 廒彖庛, 廒 廒庥帢怷庣 彖怷弮巹庤怷彖庣, 庥帢廔 峎弇庣彖 廒徆 廒庛彖 怷彖 廔 庥帢弇廔 弇帢帣峟彖, 廒 廒庥帢怷庣 廒帠庢彖帢庣, 怷廔帤廔 廒彖 <庥帢> 庥帢弇弇庰庣庛彃弮庰彖, 廒弇弇廔 峎彖帢 峎彖帢 帤庣帢弇帢帣峟彖. 怷廔 帠廔區 峎彖庰 帢廔廔 彖怷弮巹庤怷彖庣.

(19) 帢庰徆怷彃缶樁敖 帤廔 庥帢廔 怷巹庢弮峎 庣繚 庥帢廔 帠廔區 廔裕 廒弇弇怷彖 廔形棒 庛彖庢怷彃庣彖 彖弮怷彖 廔庢庣 帤庣帢庣彃僇蝓 怷廔帤廔統 廒缶 峎彖庢庣 庥帢弇彖, 怷廔帤 帢廒區彖, 廒弇弇廔 帢廔 廒怷巹庢庰彖 弇帢帣彖 廔 庥帢庣廔裒 帢廒區廔 庥帢廔 帤庣帢弇弇峎徆帢 庥帢弇峎.

(20) 廔＋ 帤廔 廔 彖怷弇怷彖 庰廒剿帢庣, 峎彖帢 庥帢庣彃僇 弮廔統 庥帢弇峎 廒彖庣, 廒彖 廒庥帢庣巹帢庣 帤 帢廒區峎. 巹 廔缶 帤庣庰帢徆峎弮庢彖; 廒帢彖 廒怷帤庰巹徆庰庣彖 帢廔廔 帢廒區廔 庥帢廔 庥帢弇廔 廒彖帢, 庥帢廔 廒峟帤庰庣徆帢 廒彖 怷怷庣 彄剿庣.

(21) 弇峟帠庰帢庣 帤廔 庥帢廔 庰廔 彃 帢廒區彃 庥帢廔 <彃> 庥帢弇彃, 廔＋ 廒弇弇怷 廒庥峎庰怷彖 庰廒棒. 廒庰廔 帢廒 庣 廒峎帢庣 廔樞 弇峟帠怷彖帢, 廔＋ 廔 帢廔廔 彄僇割樁 帢廒區廔裕 庥帢廔 庥帢弇彖 廒庣彖, 帢廒 怷庥峎 庣 帢廔怷彃 庥帢弇廔裕 廒帠帢帢庣, 庥帢廔 帢廒區廔裕 廔弮怷弇怷帠庢怷彃缶誕庣, 帢廒棲庰 廔廔裕 庥帢廔 廔 帢廒區廔裕 庥帢廔 廔 庥帢弇彖.

(22) 庥帢廔 帢廒 庣彖峎 帠帢 庥帢弇廔裕 怷廒棒棒敖誕庣 廒彖帤帢, 怷彃羊怷彖 庥帢廔 帢廒區廔裕 廔裕 帢廔彖繚 庥帢廔 帢廒 庣彖峎 帠帢 弇庰庥彖, 庥帢廔 弮峟弇帢彖帢 怷彃羊怷彖 廔裕 帢廔彖. 庥帢廔 庥帢弇彖 帠 廒廔 廔樞 庛庰廔樞 峟帣庰庛帢庣, 庥帢廔 帢廒區廔裕 帢廔 廔樞 庛庰廔樞 峟帣庰庛帢庣, 帢廒棲庰 廔廔裕 帢廒區廔裕 庥帢廔 庥帢弇彖 廒庣.

(23) 庥帢廔 峎帤庰 弮廔統 庰廔 廒峎彖彖 庰廒區峸庛 弮怷庣繚 峟怷弮帢庣 帤廔 廒廔 廔裕 弇帠怷彖 帢廔彃僇, 廔彖 弇峟帠怷彖庣.

(24) 帢廒 帠廔區 廔匿 帠彖帢彃庥帢 庥帢弇彖 廒庣 庥怷弮庰彃庛帢庣, 廔匿 帠彖帢彃庥帢 庥帢廔 帢廒區廔裕 庥怷弮庰彃庛帢庣, 帢廒棲庰 廔廔裕 帢廒區廔裕 庥帢廔 庥帢弇彖繚 庥帢廔 廒弇弇帢 庥帢廔 廔彖.

(25) 廒彖 帢庥庰帤帢巹弮怷彖巹 廒庣 庥帢弇廔裕 廔區 帢彃帤帢 帠弮彖峎庤庰庛帢庣, 廒彖 帢庥庰帤帢巹弮怷彖巹 廒庣彖 帢廒區廔裕 廔區 帢彃帤帢 帠弮彖峎庤庰庛帢庣, 庥帢廔 廒弇弇帢 怷廔.

(26) 弇峟帠怷彖庣 帤峟, 廔＋ 帢廒 庣彖庰 廔 帢廒區廔 廒庥 彃僇 廒庛彖峟彖 峎彖怷庛庰彖 彖庰彖庰巹庥帢庣庰彖, 廒庰庣帢 帠庥帢弇峟帢彖庰 庥庰弇庰怷庣庰彖, 廒 庣 庥帢弇廔 彖怷弮巹庤怷庣, 弇帢弮帣峎彖庰彖, 峎彖帢 庥帢 廒彖 庥帢弇彃僇 廒庰彖庰庣庛彃弮庰彖. 廒帠廔 庛帢弮峎庤, 帢廒 廔 帢廒區廔 彖庰彖庰庛峟彖帢 庥帢弇廔 廒庰彃帢庣, 庥帢廔 怷廔 怷廒煎疢庰 廒缶諄裕舒.

(27) 帢廒 帠怷彃缶 廒舜 廒 帣彃剿 廒 廔 廒 廒彖庛 廒帠帢帠怷彖, 怷廔庥 廒弇弇怷 巹 庥帢 廒彄僇割諺蝓 廒庰廔 怷廔帤 帢廒 廔裕 廒及諄舒團睡敖, 帢弇庥彖 [廒峸彖庰庣庥帢彖], 怷廔帤 帢廒 廒帠怷彖 廒及諄舒團睡敖, 弮弇庣帣帤彖 庥帢 廒峟庰怷彖.

(28) 廒彖廔 帤 廒帢 彃僇 帢廒區彃僇 庥帢弇廔 廒峎帠怷彖庣; 峟庰 帤峸, 帢廒 廒帢 庣 帢廒區廔裕 <廒彖帤帢> 廒帠帢帠庰, 怷彃羊怷彖 帤 帢廔 庥帢 庥帢弇廔裕 廒彄僇割; 怷庣庢廔區 帤廔 弮峎帢 廒峎帠怷彖帢庣, <怷廒> 怷廔 廒帤怷彖峎彖, 怷廔 怷廔 廒弇峎庛庰庣帢彖 怷庣庰彃缶誕庣.

2. On fine and shameful


(1) Contrasting logoi are also put forward on what is fine and shameful. For some say that what is fine is one thing and what is shameful another; as the name differs, so also the body. Others, however, say that the same thing is both fine and shameful.
(2) I shall attempt an exposition in this manner: for example, it is fine for a boy in the flower of his growth to gratify a fine lover, but it is shameful for a handsome boy to gratify a non-fine lover.
(3) And it is fine for women to wash indoors, but shameful in a wrestling school; but for men it is fine to wash in a palaistra or gymnasium.
(4) And to have intercourse with one's husband in private, where it will be hidden by walls, is fine: but outside, where someone will see, is shameful.
(5) And it is fine to have intercourse with one's own husband, but very shameful with anothers. And for the husband too it is fine to have intercourse with his wife, but shameful with anothers.
(6) And for the husband it is shameful to adorn himself and anoint himself with white lead and to put on gold ornaments, but for the wife it is fine.
(7) And it is fine to treat one's friends well, but shameful one's enemies. And it is shameful to flee one's enemies, but fine to flee one's competitors in a stadium.
(8) And it is shameful to murder friends and fellow-citizens, but fine to murder one's enemies. And this applies to every case.


(9) However, I shall go on to what cities and nations consider shameful. To Spartans, for example, it is fine that girls exercise naked or walk around bare-armed or without a tunic, but to Ionians it is shameful.


(10) And [in Sparta] it is fine that boys not learn arts and letters, but to Ionians it is shameful not to know all these things.
(11) Among Thessalians it is fine for a man first to select the horses from the herd himself and then train them and the mules, and for a man to select a steer and slaughter, skin, and cut it up himself; but in Sicily it is shameful, and the work of slaves.
(12) To Macedonians it seems fine that girls, before marrying a man, love and have intercourse with a man, but shameful once they are married. To Greeks both are shameful.

(13) For the Thracians it is an adornment that their girls are tattooed, but to others tattoo-marks are a punishment for wrongdoers. And the Scythians think it fine that, whoever kills a man, scalps his head and carries the hair in front of the horse, and gilds and silvers the bone and drinks from it and does libations to the gods; among the Greeks no one would want to enter the same house as someone who had done this.

 
(14) Massagetai cut up their parents and eat them, and it seems to them an especially fine tomb to be entombed inside one's children; if a person did this in Greece he would be driven out of Greece in disgrace and be killed for doing  things that are shameful and terrible.


(15) The Persians think it fine for men, like women, to adorn themselves, and to have intercourse with their daughter, mother, and sister; the Greeks think it shameful and unlawful.

(16) Again, to Lydians it appears fine for girls to be prostituted to earn money, and in that way get married; among the Greeks no one would be willing to marry any such girl.
(17) And Egyptians differ from others in their views on what is fine. For here it appears fine that women should weave and work wool, but there it appears fine that men do such things and that women do what men do here. Kneading clay by hand, or dough with the feet, is fine for them, but for us just the opposite.
(18) I think that if one were to order all humans to bring together into one place all that each considered shameful, and again removed from this collection what each thought fine, nothing would be left, but they would all take away everything. For not everyone thinks the same things.


(19) I shall bring forward as additional evidence some poetry: For if you make this distinction you will see  the other law for mortals: nothing is always fine or shameful, but the kairos makes the same things shameful and then substitues the fine.

(20) To speak generally, all things are fine when done at a kairos, but shameful in the wrong moment. What then have I accomplished? I said I would demonstrate that the same things are shameful and fine, and I demonstrated it in all these things.


(21) It is said also about the shameful and the fine, that each differs from the other. If one were to ask those who say that the same thing is shameful and fine whether any fine thing has ever been done by them, they will agree that it is also shameful, if the shameful and the fine are the same.
(22) And if they know that a particular man is fine, they know that this same man is also shameful; and if white, he is also dark. And if it is fine to treat the gods with respect, it is also shameful to treat the gods with respect, if the same thing is shameful and fine.

(23) And let this be said about everything.  I shall turn to the logos that they say.

(24) If it is fine for a woman to adorn herself, it is also shameful for a woman to adorn herself, if the same thing is shameful and fine. And this applies to other cases:
(25) In Sparta it is fine for girls to exercise naked, in Sparta it is shameful for girls to exercise naked, and similarly in other instances.

(26) They say that if some people were to bring together shameful things from everywhere, and were then to call people together and command them to take what each considered fine, everything would be taken away as fine. I am amazed if shameful things that were collected will be fine, and not the sort of things they were when they came.
(27) Certainly if they led horses or cattle or sheep or people together, they would not have led something else. For they would not even have taken brass away if they had brought gold, nor lead if they had brought silver coin.
(28) Do they really then take away things that are fine in place of the shameful that they brought? Come now, if someone brought along a shameful man, would he have led him away fine instead? They also adduce as witnesses poets, who write their poetry to give pleasure, not to propound truth.

 

(3) 庰廔 帤庣庥帢巹怷 庥帢廔 廒帤巹庥怷   

  (1) 帤庣怷廔 帤廔 弇帠怷庣 弇峟帠怷彖帢庣 庥帢廔 庰廔 彃 帤庣庥帢巹 庥帢廔 彃 廒帤巹庥. 庥帢廔 怷廔 弮廔統 廒弇弇怷 廒缶樁舒 廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖, 廒弇弇怷 帤廔 廔 廒帤庣庥怷彖繚 怷廔 帤廔 廔廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 庥帢廔 廒帤庣庥怷彖繚 庥帢廔 廒帠廔 怷庣 庰庣帢怷彃缶樁敖 庣弮峟彖.

(2) 庥帢廔 彃剿怷彖 弮廔統 庰帤庰庛帢庣 廔＋ 帤巹庥帢庣彖 廒庣 弇庰徆彃 庥帢廔 廒徆帢帢彄僇. 廔樞 弮廔統 怷弇庰弮巹 帢彃羊帢 怷庣廔統 <庥帢弇廔裕 庥帢廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖, 廔樞 帤廔 巹弇> 帢廒區廔裕 庥帢廔 怷彖庢廔裕 廒彖 廒徆庰巹怷庣庰彖繚 <彃剿 帤廔 廔樞 怷弇庰弮巹,> 廔樞 帤廔  庣弇峎 怷廔; 帢廔巹庥帢 廔樞 帠怷彖峟帢繚 帢廒 帠廔區 帤峟怷庣 廔裕 帢峟帢 廒 廔匿 弮帢峟帢 峎弮帢庥怷彖 庣廔統 廒 帢帠峟彖, 庥帢廔 弮廔 庛峟弇怷庣, 怷廔 帤巹庥帢庣彖 廒庣 庥帢廔 廒彖 彃僇 彃用諫峸弮帢庣 庥帢廔 廒彖 彃僇 怷彃僇 帤弮庰彖 庥帢廔 弮廔 峎弮庰彖 廒彖彃弮庰彖;

(3) 怷廔庥彃僇 <帤巹庥帢庣怷彖> 廒及棒 庰帤庰庛帢庣 庥帢廔 廒徆帢帢彄僇 廔樞 帠怷彖峟帢. 庥帢廔 庥弇峟庰彖 弮廔匿 廔 彃僇 巹弇彖 庥帢廔 帣庣彃庛帢庣 廔樞 庣弇峎 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖.

(4) 帢廔巹庥帢 帢廒 庣 弇庢庛庰巹 庣 彃僇 怷廒匿睡煎彖 庥帢廔 廒庛庰庛庰廔剿 弮峟弇弇怷庣 帢廔廔裕 帤庣帢庛庰巹庰彖 廒 徆巹庰庣 廒 怷庣彖巹庣 廒 廒弇弇庣 庣彖巹, 帤巹庥帢庣彖 廒庣 帢彃羊帢 庥弇峟帢庣, 帢廒 帤彖帢庣怷,帢廒 帤廔 廔庰巹徆帢庣 庥帢廔 廒怷彖帢 庥帢帢弇峎帣怷庣, 廒庰弇峟庛帢庣 帣巹帢庣;

 

(5) 廒彖帤帢怷帤巹徆帢庛帢庣 帤廔 彃剿 怷廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 廔樞 怷弇庰弮巹 <庥帢廔> 帢廒 庣 帤彖帢庣怷 廒弇廔樁 弇庣彖 廔弇帢彖 廒怷帤庛帢庣; 怷庣廔統 帤廔 廔 彃僇 怷弇庣彃僇 庥怷庣彖廔 怷廒匿睡晌樁救帢 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 帢巹彖庰帢庣. 帢廒 帠廔區 廔 帢廔棲 廒廔 庛帢彖峎庣, 庥帢庰帢庣帢弮峟彖怷 廔廔 彃僇 廒庛彃僇, 帤庰帤庰弮峟彖怷 庰廒棒, 廒帢 怷廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 帤庣怷徆帢彖帢 庥弇峟帢庣 庥帢廔 彃剿帢庣 廔裕 帢峟帢;

(6) 廒庣怷庥廔統 帤峟繚 帢廒 庣 廔廔 彃僇 怷弇庰弮巹彖 弇帢庛庰廔剿 廔怷帤峟徆帢庣怷 廔弮彖彖 廒 弮廔匿 廒庰庛庰廔剿 廔匿 弇庣彖 怷帤庰彖, 廒帢 怷廔怷 帤巹庥帢庣峎 <庥帢> 怷庣峸帢庣 庰廔怷庥峸帢;

(7) 廒帠廔 弮廔統 帠廔區 怷廔 帤怷庥彃黑 廒弇弇廔 弮彄僇銜銜諺 廔匿 弇庣彖 庥帢廔 廔樞 巹弇 庥帢廔 廔 廒敖舜廔 帢庣 <庥帢 廔> 帢帢 廒庣怷庥峸帢. 廒及棒 廒帢 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 庥帢廔 廔 廒庣怷庥庰彃彖. 庥帢廔 廔 廒敖舜怷弇峟彖繚

(8) 廔 弮廔統 廒棒棒團 彃僇 弇庰彖 廒彃黑 廔 帤廔 庥怷庣彖廔 彄剿 廒弇弇峎帤怷, 廔 廒庥 庰弇彃僇 庥帢廔 廔 廒徆 廔弇弮巹帢, 弮峟弇弇怷彖怷 彃 帣帢帣峎 廔匿 廒弇弇峎帤帢 弇帢帣庰彃彖 庥帢廔 彄剿 庢巹帢 廒彖 峸弮帢庣彖 廒怷帢, 怷廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 弇帢帣廔統 庥帢廔 彃庛帢庣 廒 廔裕 弇庰弮怷彖;

(9) 怷彖庰庰彖 帤廔 廔樞 庣弇峎 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖繚 廒庰廔 庥帢廔 廔峟帢 庥帢廔 廒弇庥弮帢巹彖繚 庥帢廔 廔 庛庰廔裒 廒庢庰 帤巹庥帢庣帢 帢廔廔樞 怷庣彃帢庣.

(10) 廒廔 帤廔 廔區 峟彖帢 峟怷弮帢庣 庥帢廔 廔 彃僇 怷庣庢彃僇. 廒彖 帠廔區 帢帠庣帤怷怷庣巹帢庣 庥帢廔 庤帠帢巹帢庣 廔庣 <庥帢> 弇庰彃帢 廒徆帢帢彃庣 廔弮怷庣帢 怷彃 廒弇庢庛庣彖怷彃 怷庣峟彖, 怷廔怷 廒庣怷.

(11) 庛峟弇 帤廔 庥帢廔 怷庣庢弮峎彖 帢弇帢庣怷峟彖 弮帢庣怷彖 廒帢帠帢帠峟庛帢庣. 弇庰怷帣怷弇巹彖庢繚 廒彖帤 庰廒僇棒諺 庥弇峟怷彖帢 庥帢廔 廒徆帢帢彃僇誕帢 帣庣帢巹, 庥帢廔 廔 帣巹帢庣 彃用倀憊敖 怷彃羊怷 帤庣庥帢庣帢怷彖.

(12) 廒缶 峎弇帢庣 帢彃羊帢繚 廒區弇怷 帤廔 帢彃羊帢 [fr. 301. 302]繚 廒峎庢 帤庣庥帢巹帢 怷廔庥 廒怷帢庰彃 庛庰,

&梭喧;庥帢巹繚&眶喧;

  庰帤彃僇 帤廔 庥帢庣廔裕 廒庛 廔怷 庣弮彄僇 庛庰.

(13) 弇峟帠庰帢庣 帤廔 庥帢廔 彃僇團棒 廒彖巹怷 弇帠怷, 廔＋ 廒弇弇怷 廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 庥帢廔 廔 廒帤庣庥彖 廒庣彖, 帤庣帢峟怷彖 廔甩庰 庥帢廔 廔及誕弮帢, 怷廔 庥帢廔 廔 彄僇割樁. 廒庰廔 帢廒 庣 廒峎帢庣 廔樞 弇峟帠怷彖帢, 廔＋ 廔 帢廔 廒庣彖 廒帤庣庥怷彖 庥帢廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖, 帢廒 廒及棒 庣 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 庰廔 廔樞 帠怷彖峟帢 廒帢徆帢彖, 廔弮怷弇怷帠庢怷彃缶誕庣. 庥帢廔 廒帤庣庥怷彖 廒帢. 廔 帠廔區 帢廔廔 廒帤庣庥怷彖 庥帢廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 廔弮怷弇怷帠峟怷彖庣 廒缶樁舒.

(14) 峟庰 廒弇弇怷 帤峸繚 帢廒 庣彖帢 帠庣彖庥庰庣 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 廒彖帤帢, 庥帢廔 廒帤庣庥怷彖 廒帢 廔裕 帢廔彖, 庥帢廔 弮峟帠帢彖 怷巹彖彖 庥帢廔 弮庣庥廔裕 庥帢廔 廔彖. 庥帢廔 <帢廒> 弇峟帠怷庣怷 怷弇弇廔 廒帤庣庥峸帢 廒怷庛帢彖峟, 廒怷庛帢彖峟 <庥帢廔 怷弇弇廔 庥帢廔 帤巹庥帢庣帢 帤庣帢>帢徆峎弮庰彖怷.

(15) 庥帢廔 庰廔 弮廔統 怷彖 廒弇庣. 庰廒僇樁 帤廔 廒 廒 弇峟帠怷彖庰 廒徆庣怷彖庣 廔 帢廔廔 庥帢廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 庥帢廔 廒帤庣庥怷彖 廒怷帤庰庣庥彖庰彖.

(16) 廔 帠廔區 庥弇峟庰彖 廔 彃僇 怷弇庰弮巹彖 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖, 庥帢廔 廒帤庣庥怷彖 廒怷帤庰庣庥彖庰彖 怷彃羊怷 帢廔, 帢廒 庥 廒弇庢庛廔棲 廔 峸彖彖 弇帠怷, 庥帢廔 廒弇弇帢 庥帢廔.

(17) 峟彖帢 帤廔 廒峎帠怷彖帢庣, 廒彖 帢廒煙 怷廔庥 廒庣 廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 庥帢廔 廔 廒帤庣庥怷彖. 庥帢廔 怷廔 怷庣庢帢廔 怷廔 [怷] 怷廔 廒弇峎庛庰庣帢彖, 廒弇弇廔 怷廔 廔區 廒帤怷彖廔區 彃僇 廒彖庛彖 廔 怷庣峸弮帢帢 怷庣峟怷彖庣.

 

 

 

3. On just and unjust
(1) Dissoi logoi are also spoken on the just and unjust. Some say that what is just and what is unjust are different things, others that the same thing is just and unjust. And I shall attempt to support this view.


(2) And I shall say first of all that it is just to lie and deceive. They might declare that that doing these things to one's enemies is fine and just; but to ones friends would be shameful and base.  How about the enemies, and those who are not the closest friends?  Parents, for example. For if one's father or mother has to drink or eat medicine, but is unwilling, is it not just to give it in their stew and in their drink and not say that it is in it?


(3) So it is just now to lie and deceive one's parents. Is it also just to steal what belongs to one's friends and use violence on ones dearest.

 (4) For example, if some member of one's household, in pain and aggrieved, is going to do away with himself with a sword or rope or something else, it is just to steal them, if one can, or, if one comes too late and comes upon him holding it, (is it just) to take it away by force?
(5) And how is it not just to enslave the enemy, if one can capture a city and sell it? And to break and enter the public buildings of fellow-citizens appears just. For if one's father, at pain of death, has been overpowered by enemies and jailed, is it not just to break in, steal away, and save one's father?

(6) And perjury. If someone is captured by the enemy and submits to an oath to betray his city if set free, would this man be acting justly if he honoured his oath?
(7) I do not think so, but rather he would save his city, his friends, and the ancestral temples by committing perjury. So it is now clear that perjury isalso just. And temple-robbery as well.
(8) Leave aside the temples of individual cities; is it not just to take and use for war those that are the shared temples of Greecethose of Delphi and Olympiaif the foreign invader is about to capture Greece, and safety depends on money?

(9) And it is just to slaughter those who are dearest, since both Orestes and Alcmaeon did and the god revealed that they had acted justly.
(10) I shall turn to the technai and the work of poets. For in writing tragedies and in painting whoever deceives most is makes things like the real is best.

(11) And I want to adduce testimony from older poetry, like that of Cleobuline:

I saw a man stealing and deceiving by force, And accomplishing this by force was very just.


(12) These lines were very old. These are from Aeschylus:
     God does not desert just deception.

And

God honours when there is a kairos for lies.


(13) There is an opposing logos to this also, that what is just and what is unjust are different; as the name differs, so likewise does the reality. For if one were to ask those who say that the same thing is just and unjust whether they had ever up to then performed any just action towards their parents, they will say Yes. But in that case it was also an unjust action; for they concede that the same thing is just and unjust.

(14) Or take another point. If somebody knows that some man is just, he in that case knows that the same man is unjust and by the same token big and small. But if a man has been very unjust in his actions he ought to be executed! For he has brought about [a situation that warrants death?].
(15) Let that suffice for these points. I shall turn to they say when they claim to demonstrate that the same thing is both just and unjust.
(16) For, if what they say is true, [the fact? to demonstrate?] that stealing the enemy's possessions is just is to demonstrate that this very action is unjust; and likewise for the other cases.
(17) They adduce as evidence arts in which what is just and what is unjust have no place. And poets never write their poems to propound truth but to give pleasure.

 (4) 庰廔 廒弇帢庛峟怷 庥帢廔 庰帤庰怷  

  (1) 弇峟帠怷彖帢庣 帤廔 庥帢廔 庰廔 彃 庰帤庰怷 庥帢廔 彃 廒弇帢庛峟怷 帤庣怷廔 弇帠怷庣, 廔形 廔 弮峟彖 帢庣, 廒弇弇怷彖 弮廔統 廔裕 庰帢彖 廒缶樁舒 弇帠怷彖, 廒弇弇怷彖 帤廔 廔裕 廒弇帢庛彃繚 怷廔 帤廔 廔裕 帢廔廔裕 帢廔.

(2) 庥廒帠廔 彖帤庰 弇峟帠繚 彃剿怷彖 弮峟彖, 廔庣 怷彃 帢廔怷彃 廔彖弮帢庣 弇峟帠怷彖帢庣繚 廒庰庣帢 帤峟, 廔帢彖 弇帠怷 彃用煎詬庣, 帢廒 弮廔統 廔甩 <庥帢> 弇峟帠庢帢庣 廔 弇帠怷, 怷廔 帠庰帠峟彖庢帢庣, 廒弇帢庛廔棲 廔 弇帠怷, 帢廒 帤廔 弮廔 帠庰帠峟彖庢帢庣, 庰帤廔棲 廔 帢廔廔裒 弇帠怷.

(3) 帢廔巹庥帢 庥帢庢帠怷庰彃 廒敖舜怷弇巹帢彖 繚 帢廒 帠 廒帠峟彖庰怷 廔羊帠怷彖, 廒弇帢庛廔棲 廔 弇帠怷繚 帢廒 帤廔 弮廔 廒帠峟彖庰怷, 庰帢. 庥帢廔 彃 廒怷弇怷帠怷弮峟彖 廔＋廔裒 弇帠怷. 庥帢廔 峎 帠庰 帤庣庥帢峸庣帢 廔裕 帢廔廔裕 弇帠怷彖 庥帢廔 庰帢彖 庥帢廔 廒弇帢庛彃 庥巹彖怷彖庣.

(4) 廒庰庣帢 怷廔 廒徆彃 庥帢庛峸弮庰彖怷庣 帢廒 弇峟帠怷庣弮庰彖 弮帢 庰廒匿樁胼, 廔 帢廔廔 弮廔統 峎彖庰 廒怷彃缶樁舒, 廒弇帢庛廔棲 帤廔 弮彖怷 廒帠, 廒庰廔 庥帢廔 庰廒匿樁.

(5) 帤彄僇銜諺 廔缶, 廔庣 廔 帢廔廔裒 弇帠怷, 廔帢彖 弮廔統 帢廔彃僇 帢彃庣 廔 庰彃缶棒諫, 庰帢 (10)

廒巹彖, 廔帢彖 帤廔 廔 廒弇帢庛峟, 廒弇帢庛峸 (廔甩庰 庥帢廔 廒彖庛怷 廔 帢廔, 庥帢廔 帢彃 庥帢廔 彖庰帢彖巹庥怷 庥帢廔 廒彖廔棲 庥帢廔 帠峟彖, 廒巹彖).

(6) 弇峟帠庰帢庣 帤廔 庥帢廔 廔＋ 廒弇弇怷 庰廒棒 廔 庰帢 弇帠怷, 廒弇弇怷 帤廔 廔 廒弇帢庛峸, 帤庣帢峟彖 廔及誕弮帢 <廔甩庰 庥帢廔 廔 彄僇割樁>繚 帢廒 帠峎 庣 廒峎帢庣 廔樞 弇峟帠怷彖帢, 廔＋ 廔 帢廔廔裒 弇帠怷 庰廒棒 庰帢 庥帢廔 廒弇帢庛峸, 廔彖 帢廔怷廔 弇峟帠怷彖庣, 庰 廒庣彖繚 帢廒 弮廔統 庰帢, 帤彄僇銜諺 廔庣 帤怷 庰廒棒溘 帢廒 帤 廒弇帢庛峸 [廒怷庥巹彖帢庣怷], 庥帢廔 庰帢 廔 帢廔廔裒 怷廔怷. 庥帢廔 廒弇帢庛彃 巹 怷庥帢 庰廒剿庰彖 廒 廒徆庰弮帢庢庰, 庥帢廔 庰帤彃 廒帢 廔 帢廔廔 帢彃羊帢. 庥帢廔 帢廒 庣彖帢 廒彖帤帢 廒弇帢庛彃 怷廒僇棒, 庥帢廔 庰帢彖 廔裕 帢廔彖.

(7) 廒庥 帤廔 彃 弇帠 弇峟帠怷彖庣 帢彃羊帢, 廔庣 帠庰彖怷弮峟彖 弮廔統 彃 峎帠弮帢怷 廒弇帢庛彃 廔裕 弇帠怷彖 <弇峟帠怷彖庣>, 廒帠庰彖峸 帤廔 庰帢彖. 怷廔庥彖 帤庣帢峟庰庣 <帢廔彃僇 廔及誕弮帢, 廒弇弇廔 廔 彄僇割樁.

(8) 廒峎帢庣 帤廔 庥峎 庣> 帢廔庛庣 廔樞 帤庣庥帢峎, 廔 庣 庥巹彖怷彖庣 (怷廔 帠廔區 峎庰彖庣 怷彃 峎帠弮帢庣彖)繚

(9) 廔弮怷弇怷帠峟怷彖庣 帤廔 庥帢廔 帢廔怷巹, 廔形 弮廔統 廔 庰彃缶棒諫 廒彖帢弮峟弮庰庣庥帢庣, 庰帢彖 廒缶樁舒, 廔形 帤廔 廔 廒弇帢庛峟, 廒弇帢庛彃. 怷彃羊怷 帤廔 廔弇怷彖 帤庣帢峟庰庣 ...

5. (1) 帢廔廔 怷廔 弮帢庣彖弮庰彖怷庣 庥帢廔 怷廔 怷彖怷彃缶誕庰 庥帢廔 怷廔 怷怷廔 庥帢廔 怷廔 廒弮帢庛庰彃 庥帢廔 弇峟帠怷彖庣 庥帢廔 峎怷彖庣.

(2) 庥帢廔 彄剿怷彖 弮廔統 廔彖怷弮峎庤怷彖庣 帢廔峎, 帠彄僇 庥帢廔 廒彖庛怷彖 庥帢廔 廒舜怷彖 庥帢廔 彃羊 庥帢廔 廒弇弇帢 峎彖帢. 庥帢廔 怷庣峟怷彖庣 帢廔峎, 庥峎庛庢彖帢庣 庥帢廔 廒庛怷彖庣 庥帢廔 巹彖怷彖庣 庥帢廔 庥帢峎庥庰庣彖帢庣, 庥帢廔 廒弇弇帢 庥帢廔.

(3) 庥帢廔 弮廔匿 庥帢廔 廔 帢廔廔 彄僇割樁 庥帢廔 弮峟庤怷彖 庥帢廔 弮彃庣彖 廒庣 庥帢廔 弇峟怷彖 庥帢廔 廒弇帢怷彖 庥帢廔 帣帢庰怷彖 庥帢廔 庥怷庰怷彖. 怷廔 帠峎 廒彖庣 帢廔廔 峎彖帢繚

(4) 廔 峎弇帢彖彖 廒庣 帣帢庰怷彖彃 弮彖彄剿, 庥帢廔 庥怷庰怷彖 彃僇 帤怷 帢弇峎彖彖繚 廔廔裕 廒帢 庥帢廔 庥怷庰怷彖 庥帢廔 帣帢庰怷彖.

(5) 庥帢廔 庤庰庣 廔 帢廔廔裒 廒彖庛怷 庥帢廔 怷廔 庤庰庣, 庥帢廔 帢廔廔 廒庣 庥帢廔 怷廔庥 廒庣繚 廔 帠廔區 彃庣帤 廒彖帢 廒彖 彄僇 庣帣帢庣 怷廔庥 廒庣彖, 怷廔帤峟 庥帢廔 帢廔廔 廒庣 庥帢廔 怷廔庥 廒庣繚 廔 帠廔區 彃庣帤 廒彖帢 廒彖 彄僇 庣帣帢庣 怷廔庥 廒庣彖, 怷廔帤峟 帠庰 廔 廒彖 庣帣帢庣 廒彖 庣. 庥帢廔 廒弇弇帢 庥帢廔 廔裕 帢廔廔裕 弇帠怷彖. 怷廔庥彃僇 庥帢廔 廒彖廔  廔 峎帠弮帢帢 庥帢廔 怷廔庥 廒彖巹.

(6) 怷廔 彃彖帢 弇峟帠怷彖庰, 廔樞 弮帢庣彖怷弮峟彖 庥帢廔 <廔樞怷彖怷彃缶誕帢 庥帢廔> 廔樞 怷廔樞 庥帢廔 廔樞 廒弮帢庛庰彃 廔廔 帤庣帢峎庰庛帢庣 庥帢廔 弇峟帠庰彖, 庥帢廔 廒弇弇帢 <廔> 廒弮庰彖帢 彃僇 弇帠庣, 怷廔庥 廔庛彃剿 弇峟帠怷彖庣.

(7) 帢廒 帠峎 庣 帢廔廔樞 廒峎帢庣, 帢廒 帤庣帢峟庰庣 弮帢彖巹帢 怷彖庢 庥帢廔 怷巹帢 廒弮帢庛巹庢, 帢彖巹繚 彖帢巹.

(8) 庰廔 帠廔區 庥帢廔 廒徆 廔形 峎怷彖庣 廒庥峎庰怷庣 帤彄僇銜諺 廒彖庣, 廔＋ 廔弮怷弇怷帠庢怷彃缶誕庣. 怷廔庥彃僇 帢廒 帢廔廔   峎怷彖庣, 庥帢廔 怷廔 怷怷廔 弮帢巹彖怷彖帢庣, 庥帢廔 怷廔 弮帢庣彖弮庰彖怷庣 怷怷巹, 庥帢廔 峎彖帢 彖帢峎怷彖帢庣.

(9) 庥帢廔 廒帢庥峟怷 廔 弇帠怷, 庰怷彖 廔缶 廒彖 帤峟怷彖庣 怷廔 怷彖怷彃缶誕庰 弇峟帠怷彖庣 廒 怷廔 弮帢庣彖弮庰彖怷庣. 廒弇弇廔 帠峎 帢彖庣, 廔＋ 帢廔廔 弮廔統 弇峟帠怷彖庣, 廔帢彖 庣 帢廔廔樞 廒彃庣繚 廒弇弇廔 怷廔 弮廔統 怷怷廔 廒彖 彃僇 帤峟怷彖庣, 怷廔 帤廔 弮帢庣彖弮庰彖怷庣 廒庣 怷廔 帤庰彃.

(10) 庥帢廔 怷彃羊怷 弇峟帠怷彖庰 帤怷庥怷彃缶誕庣 弮庣庥廔裕 怷庣庛彃彖帢庣 <廔> 廒庣 帤庰彃 庥帢廔 弮廔 帤庰彃, 廔甩庰   弮庢庥峟庣 廔 帢廔廔 廒缶樁舒.

(11) 廒帠廔 帤廔 怷廔 峎帠弮帢怷 怷怷彃羊怷彖 怷庣庰庛峟彖怷 廒弇弇怷庣怷彃羊庛帢庣 帤怷庥彃 廔 峎帠弮帢帢, 廒弇弇 廒弮怷彖巹帢 帤庣帢弇弇帢帠庰巹帢繚 廔甩庰 弇帢彃缶睡諫 庥帢廔 帠弇帢庥 庥帢廔 峎彖庛怷 庥帢廔 徆帢彖庛 庥帢廔 怷彃缶裕諫 庥帢廔 徆怷庛.

(12) 帢彃羊帢 弮廔統 廔棒 廒弮怷彖巹帢彖 廒弇弇峎徆帢彖帢 帤庣峸彖庰庣庥帢彖, 廔 帤廔 弮帢庥彃剿 庥帢廔 帣帢峟 彃用煎裕倀誕帢. 峇怷 庥帢廔 峎庥怷 庥帢廔 帢庥, 廒庰帢 帤廔 帠峎弮弮帢帢 帤庣帢弇弇峎徆帢彖帢繚 庥峎怷 庥帢廔 庥帢, 廔彖怷 庥帢廔 彖怷.

(13) 廒庰廔 廔缶 怷廔庥 廒帢庣庰庛峟彖怷 怷廔帤庰彖廔裒 怷怷彃羊怷彖 帤庣帢峟庰庣, 巹 帤峸, 帢廒 巹 庣 怷庣巹庛庢庣 廒 廒帢庣庰彃; 庥帢廔 怷彃羊怷 帤庰巹徆 怷廒煙彖 廒庣彖.

(14) 帢廒 庣 廒廔 彃僇 帤峟庥帢 廒彖 廒峟弇怷庣 <廒 怷彃 帤峟庥帢 廒彖 怷庛庰巹庢>, 怷廔 庥 廒庣 帤峟庥帢 怷廔帤廔 廒彖 庰廒棒, 庥帢廔 廒弇弇帢 庥帢廔.

(15) 廔 帤廔 廔裕 帢廔廔裕 廒彖庛怷彖 庥帢廔 廒缶樁舒 庥帢廔 弮廔 廒缶樁舒, 廒彃黑 廔 廒 廔 峎彖帢 廒庣彖; 怷廔庥彃僇 帢廒 庣 弮廔 帢巹庢 廒缶樁舒, 庰帤庰帢庣, <廔 廔 庥帢廔> 廔 峎彖帢 庰廒區廔樁 帢廔峎. 峎彖帢 廔缶 峸庣 廒庣.

 

4. On truth and falsehood
(1) Dissoi logoi are also put forward on what is true and what is false. The one view affirms that the true logosand the false logosare different things; the other group affirms that the two statements are on the contrary the same.

(2) I for my part also hold the latter view: first, because the two statements are expressed in the same words; and next, because whenever a logosis made, if the event has taken place in the way indicated by the statement, the logosis true; but if the event has not taken place in the way indicated, the same logosis false.
(3) For example, suppose a logosconsists of an accusation against somebody of temple-robbery. If the act took place, the logos is true; if not, it is false. And likewise with the logos of the man defending himself against the charge. And lawcourts in fact judge the same logosto be both true and false.
(4) For the fact is, even if, sitting next to one another in a row, we were [as a group] to say, "I am an initiate", we shall all say the same thing, but only I shall be telling the truth, since only I am an initiate.
(5) It is clear, then, that the same logosis false when the false is present to it, and true when the true is present to it (just as a person is the same person, though at one time a child, at another a youth, at another an adult, and at another an old man).
(6) It is also said that the false logos is different from the true logos; as the name differs, so likewise does the reality. For if anyone were to ask those who say that the same logos is false and true which of the two their own logos is, if the reply were "false", it is clear that a true logos and a false logos are two different things, but if he were to reply "true" then this same logos is also false. And if at any time he said something true or testified that something was true, then he also testified that the same things were false. And if he knows that a certain man is an honest man, he knows the same man is a liar.

(7) And in accord with their thesis they say that a logosis true if the event to which it refers took place, but false if it did not. It is therefore important to ask jurymen in their turn what their judgment is (jurymen, of course, not being personally present at the events).
(8) Even they themselves agree that that with which the false is intermingled is false, and that that with which the true is intermingled is true. But this view is totally different [from their original thesis].

5. "(1) The demented, the sane, the wise and the ignorant both say and do the same things.
(2) First of all they call things by the same name: 'earth', 'man', 'horse', 'fire', and everything else. And they do the same things: they sit, eat, drink, lie down, and so on, in the same way.

(3) What is more, the same thing is also both bigger and smaller, and more and less, and heavier and lighter. For in those respects all objects are the same.

(4) The talent is heavier than the mina and lighter than two talents; the same thing then is both lighter and heavier.

(5) And the same man is alive and is not alive; and the same things exist (are the case) and do not exist (are not the case). For what exists (is the case) here does not exist (is not the case) in Libya; nor does what exists (is what is the case) in Libya exist (turn out to be the case) in Cyprus. And so on in all other instances, using the same logos. Consequently, things both exist (are the case) and do not exist (are not the case)".
(6) Those who say this that the demented and the wise and the ignorant do and say the same things, and all the other things that follow from the logos are in error.
(7) For if one were to ask them if dementedness differs from sanity or wisdom from ignorance, they say "Yes".
(8) For it is quite obvious, even from the actions of each group, that they will grant this point. So even if they do the same things (as the demented do) the wise are not demented, nor the demented wise, nor is everything turned into confusion.
(9) And one ought to bring up the question whether it is those who are sane or those who are demented who speak at the right moment. For whenever one asks them they say that the two groups say the same things, only the wise say them at the right moment and the demented at moments when it is not proper.
(10) And in saying this they seem to me to have added the small phrases "when it is proper" and "when it is not proper", with the result that it is no longer the same thing.
(11) I do not think that things are altered by adding of such a thing, but when an accent is changed. For example: "弇帢庥怷" (Glaucus) and "帠弇帢庥 " (green), or "峎彖庛怷" (Xanthus) and "徆峎彖庛怷" (blonde), or "怷庛怷" (Xuthus) and "徆怷庛怷" (nimble).
(12) These differed by a difference by changing the pitch: the following by being spoken with longer or shorter vowels: "峇怷" (Tyre) and "" (cheese), "峎庥怷" (shield) and "帢庥" (enclosure), and yet others by changing the ordering of their letters: "庥峎怷" (strength) and "庥帢怷" (of a head), "彖怷" (ass) and "彖怷" (mind).
(13) Since, then, there is such a difference when nothing is taken away, what if in that case somebody does either add something or take something away? I shall show the sort of thing I mean.
(14) If a man were to take away one from ten, there would no longer be ten or even one, and so on in the same way in all other instances.
(15) As for the affirmation that the same man exists and does not exist I ask, "Does he exist in some particular respect or in every respect?"Thus, if anyone denies that the man in question exists, he is making the mistake of asserting "in every respect". The conclusion is that all these things exist in some way.

 

(6) 庰廔 彄剿 怷巹帢 庥帢廔 彄剿 廒庰彄剿, 帢廒 帤庣帤帢庥彖   

(1) 弇峟帠庰帢庣 帤峟 庣 弇帠怷 怷廔 廒弇帢庛廔棲 怷廔庰 庥帢庣彖繚 廔庣 廒帢 怷巹帢 庥帢廔 廒庰廔 怷廔庰 帤庣帤帢庥廔裕 庰廒棒 怷廔庰 弮帢庛庢彖. 怷廔 帤廔 帢彃羊帢 弇峟帠怷彖庰 帢彃帤庰 廒怷帤庰巹徆庰庣 彃僇誕帢庣繚

(2) 廔＋ 怷廔 怷廒煙彖 庰 庰廒棒, 帢廒 庣 廒弇弇庣 帢帢帤怷巹庢, 怷彃羊怷 帢廔廔裕 廒庣 廒庰庣彖. 弮巹帢 弮廔統 帤廔 帢廔帢.

(3) 廒弇弇帢 帤峟, 廔＋, 帢廒 帤庣帤帢庥廔裕 廒缶, 帤庣帤峎庥帢弇怷巹 庥帢 廒怷帤庰帤庰帠弮峟彖怷庣 廒缶, 廔＋ 彄剿 弮庣庥彄剿.

(4) 巹帢 帤峟, 廔＋ 怷廔 廒彖 彄僇 廒弇弇峎帤庣 帠庰彖弮庰彖怷庣 怷怷廔 廒彖帤庰 廔匿 帢廔彃僇 峟彖帢彖 廒帤巹帤帢徆峎彖 庥帢 廔樞 巹弇.

(5) 庰峎帢 帤峟, 廔庣 廒及棒 庣彖廔紮 帢廔 怷庣廔區 廒弇庛彖庰 怷廔帤廔統 廔峟弇庢庛庰彖.

(6) 峟弮帢 帤峟, 廔庣 怷弇弇怷廔 怷廔 帠帠庰彖弮庰彖怷庣 怷庣帢彃 廒徆庣怷庣 弇帠 帠庰帠峟彖庢彖帢庣.

(7) 廒帠廔 帤廔 庥峎帢 庰廔峸庛庢 彖怷弮巹庤 彖帤庰 廔裕 弇帠怷彖繚 帠庣彖庥 帠廔區 廔樞 帤庣帤帢庥峎弇 帠峎弮弮帢帢 帤庣帤峎庥庰彖, 峎 庥帢 庥帢廔 帢廔廔裒 廒庣峎弮庰彖怷 帠峎彖庢庣, 庥帢廔 庥庣庛帢庣廔區 庥庣庛帢巹庤庰彖. 廔裒 帤廔 廔匿 帤庰峟帢彖 廒帤庰庣徆庣彖,    廔＋ 廒帢 怷廔庥 廒彖廔 帤庣帤峎庥帢弇怷庣 廒怷帤庰帤庰帠弮峟彖怷庣, 巹 弮廔匿 怷廔 怷庣帢廔 帤庣帤峎庥怷彖庣 廒弇弇 廒 怷巹帢彖 庥帢廔 廒庰峎彖;

(8) [廒兡 巹 帤廔 廒彖帢徆帢帠庰庣怷庣 庥帢廔 庛帢帠庰庣怷庣 廒缶舒; 廔 帤廔 巹怷彖, 廒帤巹帤帢徆庰 怷弇庥弇庰庣怷 廔裕 廒晨螂彖 廒彖帤庣峎彖帢 怷庣峟彖. (9) 庥帢廔 帢廒 弮峟彖 庣 弮廔 廒帤巹帤帢徆庰, 怷廔 帢弮彃庣怷彖繚 帢廒 帤 庰廒煙 庣 廒帤巹帤帢徆庰, 庰庥弮峎庣怷彖 廔庣 帤彖帢彖 廒庣 帤庣帤峎徆帢庣.

(10) 峟帢怷彖 帤峟, 帢廒 弮峸 怷庣 帢廔 [怷彃僇稽 怷庣彃僇 怷怷廔 帠巹彖怷彖帢庣繚 庥帢廔 帠廔區 帠峎弮弮帢帢 怷弇弇怷廔 怷廔庥 廒弮帢庛怷彖 弮帢庛彖庰.

(11) 廒庣 帤峟 庣 庥帢廔 庣, 廒庣 帤峸 庣 弮廔 弮帢庛廔樁 帢廔 怷庣彄僇 廒敖睡敖賦螂 廒帠峟彖庰怷, 庰廔峸 帠帢 帠庰彖弮庰彖怷, 彃用敖團棒耆 彖帢 弮廔 弮帢庛廔樁 帢廔 怷庣彄僇 廒敖睡敖賦螂 廒帠峟彖庰怷, 庰廔峸 帠帢 帠庰彖弮庰彖怷, 彃用敖團棒耆 彖帢峎徆帢庣 廔 怷弇弇峎, 廔弇巹帠帢 弮帢庛廔樁 帢 廔形誕庰 庥帢廔 廔彖弮帢帢 弮帢彖庛峎彖怷弮庰彖繚 庥帢廔 怷彖 庣 廒反怷庣 弇峟怷彖, 廒反怷庣 廒弇帢怷彖, 廔 弮廔統 帢廔 帢, 廔 帤廔 帢廔 弮帢.

(12) 帢廒 帤峟 庣 弮廔 庣彖 廒庣 廔 廔彖弮帢帢 弮帢彖庛峎彖庰庣彖 廒弮峟, 廒弇弇 廒庣帢弮峟彖 廒弮帢 帠巹彖庰庛帢庣, 帠彖 廒庥 彃僇諄棒肅 帢廒 庣 庰廔庛廔磁 帠庰彖弮庰彖怷彖 帢庣帤巹怷彖 廒 峟帢 廒怷峟弮帢庣 庥帢廔 庢彖庰彃 峎怷庣, 庥廔裕 廒弇弇峎帤怷 彖彄剿, 庰巹庤怷庣 庥帢繚 帢廒 庣 庢彖庛庰彖 彃庣帤庰 庥怷弮巹徆帢庣, 廒弇弇帢彖巹庤怷庣 庥帢. 怷廔 弮帢彖庛峎彖怷弮庰彖 廔 廔彖弮帢帢, 庥帢廔 廔樞 帤庣帤帢庥峎弇 怷廔庥 廒棲帢弮庰.

(13) 怷廔 弇峟弇庰庥帢巹 弮怷庣 廔 弇帠怷, 庥帢廔 廒庰庣 廒廔棒 庥帢廔 峟弇怷 庥帢廔 弮峟帢彖繚 庥帢廔 怷廔 弇峟帠, 廔＋ 帤庣帤帢庥彖 廒庣彖, 廒弇弇 怷廔庥 廒怷彃僇誕巹 弮怷庣 彃彖帢庣 帢廒 廒怷帤庰巹徆庰庣.

 

 

6. On whether wisdom and moral excellence are teachable
(1) There is a certain logos put forward which is neither true nor new, to the effect that wisdom and moral excellence can be neither taught nor learned. Those who say this use the following proofs:
(2) That it is impossible, if you hand over something to another, for you to retain it. This is one proof.
(3) Another is that, if they could be taught, there would have existed recognized teachers of them as there are of the arts.
(4) A third proof is that those men in Greece who became wise would have taught this wisdom to their own children and their friends.
(5) A fourth proof is that before now there have been people who have gone to sophists and gained no benefit.
(6) A fifth proof is that many people who did not associate with sophists have become eminent.
(7) I consider this logos exceedingly simple-minded. For I know that teachers do teach those letters which each one happens to possess himself, and that harp-players do teach people how to play the harp. As for the second proof that there do not in fact exist acknowledged teachers, what in that case do the sophists teach, if not wisdom and virtue?
(8) And what were the followers of Anaxagoras and Pythagoras? As for the third proof, Polyclitus did teach his son how to make statues.
(9) Even if someone does not teach, that is no proof; but if he has taught it, there is proof that it is possible to teach it.
(10) The fourth point [is valid only] if they do become wise, but not after associating with skilled sophists. Many have learned their letters, even though they have not been instructed.

(11) There is also an important natural talent whereby a person becomes capable, without having learned his competence from sophists, of comprehending the greater part [of a subject] with ease (provided he is also naturally well-endowed), after learning [only?] a small part [of it] from those from whom we also learn words. And some of these latter things (be it a greater or smaller number) one person learns from his father and another from his mother.
(12) And if it is not credible that we learn our words, but that we are born knowing them, let him ascertain the truth from the following: should a person send a child to Persia as soon as it was born and have it brought up there without ever hearing the speech of Greece, the child would speak Persian; should one bring the child from Persia to Greece, the child would speak Greek. That is how we learn words, even though we do not know the teachers.
(13) With that my logos is completed, and you have its beginning, end, and middle. I am not saying that wisdom and moral excellence are teachable, but that the above-mentioned proofs do not satisfy me.

 

7. (1) 弇峟帠怷彖庣 帤峟 庣彖庰 彃僇 帤帢弮帢帠怷怷彖彖, 廔＋ 廔 廔區 廒廔區 廒廔 庥弇峎 帠巹彖庰庛帢庣, 怷廔 帣峟弇庣帢 帢彃羊帢 彖怷弮巹庤怷彖庰.

(2) 庰廒 帠峎 庣 帢廔廔裕 廒庣庢 廔裕 帢彃羊帢 弇峟帠怷彖帢, 巹 帤廔 廔 怷彃 怷廒匿睡倔帢庣 怷廔庥 廒廔 庥弇峸 廔 廒帠帢 怷峎庰庣, 廔 廔 弮廔統 庤庰帠庢弇峎帢, 帢廒 庥 廔怷怷庣廔裒 弇峎庢庣, 廔怷怷庣彃庣, 廔 帤廔 廔怷怷庣廔裒 庤庰帠庢弇帢彃庣, 庥帢廔 廒弇弇帢 庥帢廔;

(3) 庥帢廔 彃剿 怷廔 庥帢廔 廔樞 帢弇庥彃帢 庥帢廔 廔樞 庥彃帢 彖帢帠帢帠彖庰 庥帢廔 峟庥怷彖帢 庥帢廔 怷帢 帤庣庰庥弇帢帢弮庰彖 庥帢廔 廒彖帢帠庥峎帢弮庰彖, 廒彖 廒庥帢怷 弇峎庢庣 峟彖帢彖 廒帠峎庤庰庛帢庣, 廒弇弇廔 弮廔 廒彖 廒巹帢帢庣;

(4) 廔廔裕 帤廔 庥帢廔 廒彖 廒帠彃剿庣 彄剿 弮庣庥彄剿 帤庣帢庥弇帢彃剿帢庣 廔樞 廒帠彖庣廔區 庥帢廔 廔 庣 廒庥帢怷 [庥帢] 弇峎庢庣, 廒帠彖巹庤庰庛帢庣繚 帢廔弇庢廔區 庥庣庛帢庣徆庰彃 廔裕 庥帢廔 庥庣庛帢庣帤廔裒 帢廔弇峸庰庣繚 庥帢廔 廒彖 彃僇 怷弇峟弮庣 [廔樞] 怷徆帢 庥帢廔 [廔樞] 廔弇巹帢 廒救帢庰彃帢庣, 廔 帤廔 廒救庰廔磁 怷徆庰庰庣,    廔甩庰 峎彖庰 廒 怷廔庥 廒巹帢彖帢庣 怷廔帤廔 帤彖帢彖帢庣, [怷廔帤廔淫 帢徆怷彃缶誕庣.

(5) 弇峟帠怷彖庣 帤廔 庥帢廔 廒帠帢庛廔裕 廒缶樁舒 庥帢廔 帤帢弮怷庣庥廔裕 庥峎帢繚 廒帠廔 廒用睡圖帢 彖怷弮巹庤 帤帢弮怷庣庥彖. 廒彖廔 帠廔區 廒彖 帢彃 弇庰庣 弮庣帤帢弮怷庣 廒彖庛怷庣, 廔形 帢廒 庥帢 庢庣 廔 庥帢弮怷, 廒怷弇怷彃缶誕庣 廔裕 帤彄僇樁諺.

(6) 廒弇弇廔 廔 廔裕 帤彄僇樁諺 帢廔廔裕 廔彃僇誕帢 帢廒救庰彃庛帢庣 峎彖帢 廔樞 庰廔彖 帢廔彃僇, 庥帢廔 廔樞 廒庣帢帤庰巹 帢帢帠峟彖, 廒峟 帤廔 彖怷弮怷弇帢庥廔統 庥帢廔 廒弇弇帢.

 

7. (1) Some public speakers say that offices should be assigned by lot; but this thought of theirs is not very good.

(2) If only somebody would ask him (i.e., the man who says this), "Why in that case don't you assign your household slaves their jobs by lot, so that the ox-driver, if he draws the job of cook as his lot, will cook, while the cook will drive oxen, and so on in all other instances?
(3) And why don't we bring together smiths and cobblers, carpenters and goldsmiths, and assign them jobs by lot, forcing them to perform whatever craft each one draws by lot, not the craft of which each has expert knowledge?
(4) Likewise in the case of artistic contests: one could make the contestants draw lots, and each compete in whatever contest he draws. A flute-player will perhaps be playing the harp, or a harpist the flute. And in war an archer or hoplite will be a cavalryman, and a cavalryman will be an archer; with the result that everyone will be doing things of which they have neither the knowledge nor the capability.
(5) And they say that this is a good method, and exceedingly democratic. I personally consider it the least democratic of all methods. For there are in cities men who hate the people (demos), and if ever the lot falls to them they will destroy the people (demos).
(6) But the people itself ought to keep watch and elect all those who are well-disposed towards itself, and ought to choose as its army-commanders those who are suitable for the job, and to choose others to serve as guardians of the law, and so on.

8.  (1) <彃 帢廔彃> 廒彖帤廔裒 庥帢廔 彄剿 帢廔彄剿 峟彖帢 彖怷弮巹庤 庥帢廔 帣帢 庰 帤彖帢庛帢庣 帤庣帢弇峟帠庰庛帢庣, 庥帢廔 <廔匿> 廒弇峎庛庰庣帢彖 彃僇 帢帠弮峎彖 廒巹帢庛帢庣, 庥帢廔 帤庣庥峎庤庰彖 廒巹帢庛帢庣 廔庛彃剿, 庥帢廔 帤帢弮帢帠怷庰彃彖 怷廒煙彖 廒缶樁舒, 庥帢廔 弇帠彖 峟彖帢 廒巹帢庛帢庣, 庥帢廔 庰廔 庣怷 彃僇 廒峎彖彖 廔甩 庰 廒庰庣 庥帢廔 廔＋ 廒帠峟彖庰怷, 帤庣帤峎庥庰彖.

(2) 庥帢廔 彃剿怷彖 弮廔統 廔 庰廔 庣怷 彃僇 廒峎彖彖 庰廒匿棲, 彃剿 怷廔 帤彖帢庰彃帢庣 庰廔 峎彖彖 廔庛彃剿 庥帢廔 <廔匿 弇庣彖 帤庣帤峎庥庰彖> 峎庰彖;

(3) 廒庣 帤廔 廔 廔區 峟彖帢 彃僇 弇帠彖 庰廒匿氮蝦 廒庣帢庰彃帢庣 庥帢廔 庰廔 峎彖彖 廔庛彃剿 弇峟帠庰彖.

(4) 帤庰彃 帠廔區 廔裕 弮峟弇弇怷彖帢 廔庛彃剿 弇峟帠庰庣彖, 庰廔 廔形 廒巹帢帢庣, 庰廔 怷彖 弇峟帠庰彖. 峎彖 廔缶 [帠廔區] 廒庣帢庰彃帢庣.

(5) 峎彖彖 弮廔統 帠廔區 彃僇 弇帠彖 廔區 峟彖帢 廒巹帢帢庣, 怷廔 帤廔 弇帠怷庣 峎彖庰 庰廔 峎彖彖 彃僇 廒<彖彖 廒彖巹>.

(6) 帤庰彃 帤廔 廒巹帢庛帢庣 廔裕 弮峟弇弇怷彖帢 廔庛彃剿 弇峟帠庰彖, 庰廔 廔彖 庥帢 弇峟帠庢庣, <廔 峎帠弮帢帢>, 庥帢廔 廔 弮廔統 廒帠帢庛廔 廔庛彃剿 帤庣帤峎庥庰彖 廔棒 弇庣彖 峎庰彖, 廔 帤廔 庥帢庥峎 庥弇庰庣彖.

(7) 庰廒匿氮蝦 帤廔 帢彃羊帢 庰廒匿棒晅庰庣 庥帢廔 廔 廒庰帢 怷彖繚 峎彖帢 帠廔區 廒庣帢庰彃帢庣繚 廒庣 帠廔區 帢廔廔 彃僇 峎彖彖 彃彖帢, <廔> 帤廔 怷廔 廔廔裕 廔 帤峟怷彖帢 峎徆庰庣, 帢廒 峸.

(8) 庥帢廔 弮廔統 廒巹帢帢庣 帢廔弇峟彖, 廒廔 帤彖帢庰彃帢庣 帢廔弇峟彖, 帢廒 庥帢 帤峟庢庣 怷彃羊怷 峎庰彖.

(9) 廔裕 帤廔 帤庣庥峎庤庰庛帢庣 廒庣峎弮庰彖怷彖 帤庰彃 廔 帤巹庥帢庣怷彖 廒巹帢庛帢庣 廔庛彃剿繚 庰廔 帠廔區 怷彃羊怷 帢廔 帤巹庥帢庣. 庰廒匿氮蝦 帤廔 怷彃羊怷, 庰廒匿棒晅庰庣 庥帢廔 廔 廔庰彖帢彖巹怷彖 帢廔彃僇 庥帢廔 廔 <怷彖> 廒庰帢.

(10) 帤庰彃 帤廔 帢廔廔裕 庥帢廔 廔樞 彖弮 廒巹帢庛帢庣 峎彖帢繚 帢廒 怷巹彖彖 廔 峎帠弮帢帢 弮廔 廒庣帢庰彃帢庣, 怷廔帤廔 廔樞 彖弮.

(11) 廔裕 帠廔區 廒彖 弮庣庥彄僇 彖弮怷彖 廔＋廔裒 廒巹帢帢庣, 廔庰 庥帢廔 弮庣庥峎彖, 廔 帤廔 弮廔 弮庣庥峎彖, 怷廔帤廔 廔裕 彖弮怷彖.

(12) 廔 帠帢 <弮廔匿> 廔匿 廒弇峎庛庰庣帢彖 彃僇 帢帠弮峎彖 廒巹帢帢庣, 庰廔庰廔棲 廔 弇帠怷, 廔庣 峎彖帢 廒巹帢帢庣繚

(13) 廔 帤廔 <庥帢廔 庥帢廔> 帣帢廔 <帤庣帢弇峟帠庰庛帢庣 帤彖帢帢庣, 帢廒 庥帢> 帤峟庢庣 彖庣彖 廒弮庰彖怷彖 廒怷庥巹彖庰庛帢庣, 庰廔 峎彖彖繚 怷廔庥彃僇 帤庰彃 彖庣彖 峎彖 廒巹帢庛帢庣.

 

8. (1) I consider it a characteristic of the same man and of the same techne to be able to dialogue briefly and to know the truth of matters, to know how to judge correctly, to be able to speak publically, to know the technai of logoi,  and to teach people about the nature of all things, how they are and how they came to be.

(2) First of all, will not the man who knows about the nature of everything also be able to act rightly in regard to everything?

(3) Furthermore, the man who knows the technai of logoi will also know how to speak correctly about all things.
(4) For the man who is going to speak correctly must speak about what he knows; so he will  know everything.
(5) For he knows the technai of all logoi, and all logoi are about everything that is.

(6) And the man who is going to speak correctly about whatever he speaks about must know how to teach the city to do good things and prevent bad things.

(7) In knowing these things he will also know things other than these, since he will know everything. For these are some of all the things that he will do, if necessary, in response to requirements.
(8) Even if he does not know how to pipe, he will be able to pipe if it is required to do this.

(9) And the man who knows how to plead in court know justice correctly; for legal suits are about this. And by knowing this he will also know its opposite, etc.
(10) He must also know all the laws. If, however, he does not know the facts, he will also not know the laws.
(11) For the same man knows the law in music, the man who knows music. But the man who does not know music also does not know its law.
(12) At any rate, the man who knows the truth of mattersthe logos is easythat knows everything.

 
(13) And the man who can dialogue briefly, if he is required to answer questioning on every subject he must know every subject.

 9.  (1) 弮峟帠庣怷彖 帤廔 庥帢廔 庥峎弇弇庣怷彖 廒徆庰庢弮帢 庰廔庢帢庣 弮彖峎弮帢 庥帢廔 廒 峎彖帢 峸庣弮怷彖, 廒 廔匿 怷巹帢彖 庰 庥帢廔 廒 廔裕 帣巹怷彖.

(2) 廒庣 帤廔 怷彃羊怷 <彄剿怷彖>繚 廒廔匿 怷峟庢庣 廔裕 彖怷彃缶, 帤庣廔 怷彖 帢庰弇庛怷彃羊帢 廒 帠彖弮帢 弮彄僇銜銜諺 帢廒區庛庢庰彃帢庣.

(3) 帤庰庰怷彖 帤廔 弮庰弇庰彄僇, 帢廒 庥帢 廒庥怷庢庣繚 彃僇 帠廔區 怷弇弇峎庥庣 帢廔廔 廒庥怷彃羊帢庣 庥帢廔 庰廒剿帢庣 廒 弮彖峎弮帢彖 帢庰帠峟彖庰怷 彖怷弇怷彖 廔 廒弮帢庛庰.

(4) 巹怷彖, 帢廒 庥帢 廒庥怷庢庣, 廒廔 廔 怷廒僇棒救 庥帢帢庛峟庛帢庣, 怷廒煎諺 帤庰繚 帤庰彃 弮庰弮彖彄剿庛帢庣 峓庣怷彖, 庥帢庛峟弮庰彖 廒廔 廔裕 廔裕 庥帢廔 廔裕 廒舜怷彖.

(5) 廒弇弇怷繚 庣弇峎弮庢 庥帢庛峟弮庰彖 廒廔 <廔> 彃羊 庥帢廔 廔 弇峎弮庰庣彖. 峎帤庰 弮廔統 庰廔 彃僇 廔彖弮峎彖繚

(6) 廔 帤廔 峎帠弮帢帢 怷廔繚 庰廔 廒彖帤庰巹帢 廒廔 廔裕 廒庢 庥帢廔 廔裕 廒庣弇弇彃帢, 庰廔 帢弇庥庰巹帢 帤廔 廒廔 廔裕 廒倔帢庣怷彖, 庰廔 帤庰庣弇巹帢 廒廔 廔裕 廒庰庣彖 ...    (10)

9. (1) A very great and fine discovery has been made, memory; it is useful for all purposes; for wisdom and for life.

(2) This is the case, first, if you pay attention, that judgement will, by passing through these things, perceive more.


(3) Second, you must be diligent, whenever you hear something. For by frequently hearing and speaking the same things everything you learn has been committed to memory.


(4) Third, you must, whenever you hear something, relate it to what you know: for example, (if) you need to remember Chrysippus,  relate him to gold (chrysos) and horse (hippos).
(5) Another example: relate Pyrilampes to fire (pyr) and to shine (lampein). These are about words.
(6) In the case of actions, (remember) this way: if it is about courage, (relate) to Ares and Achilles; if metal-working Hephaestus, and if cowardice Epeius.1

1 Il. 23 sees Epeius box, Od. 8 as constructing the Trojan Horse, but he is not portrayed fighting in any battles.