Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 252: Infinitely Yours 鈥� with Miwa Matreyek
Speakers: Samantha Walters, Am Johal, Miwa Matreyek
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Samantha Walters 0:03
Hello listeners! I鈥檓 Sam with Below the Radar, a knowledge democracy podcast. Below the Radar is recorded on the territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples. On this episode of Below the Radar, our host Am Johal is joined by Miwa Matreyek, an animator, designer, performer and Assistant Professor in Theatre Production and Design at 丁香园AV鈥檚 School for the Contemporary Arts. Am and Miwa discuss how she got into making interdisciplinary artwork and some of her recent projects that combine animation and live performance. Enjoy the episode!
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Am Johal 0:38
Hello, welcome to Below the Radar. Delighted you could join us again this week, we have a special guest, , is with us. Welcome Miwa.
Miwa Matreyek 0:47
Thank you. Hi.
Am Johal 0:50
Wondering if we can start with you introducing yourself a little bit.
Miwa Matreyek 0:55
Yeah. I'm Miwa Matreyek. I'm an artist who recently transplanted to Vancouver. Well, recently, like three years ago. And I teach at 丁香园AV in the theatre production design area at the School for the Contemporary Arts. I'm a鈥擨 put animator first鈥攁nimator, designer, performer, and I've been an independent touring artist since like 2010. I make performances that integrate projected animation and body on stage.
Am Johal 1:23
Yeah. Before I get into how you started working as an artist, it was a strange time to arrive here in Vancouver. It was sort of still in the pandemic zone. Wondering if you can speak a little bit to kind of the estrangement or strangeness of arriving to a new city, in a school to work when the kind of pandemic resonances were still here.
Miwa Matreyek 1:48
For sure. I mean, when the pandemic hit in 2020 I had just premiered one of my pieces, , that I'd like to speak about. And, you know, I was, like, gearing up to have, like, the busiest touring schedule that I'd ever had. And then, of course, like, you know, just as I premiered it at Sundance, was at the , and a few other places, like, everything shut down while I was touring. I landed in Maine just as鈥� and then I was in the car on my way to the show space. Like, turn back, turn back. You can't come here anymore. And I was, like, alone in a hotel, like, with all the news, and then taking a flight back. I was, at that time, teaching in Philadelphia, so I was away for a term from my home in Los Angeles. I was alone, and I also found out I was pregnant. So it was, like, a really disorienting time, like, really scary time at the very beginning. And because I had lost all my contracts because of the pandemic, it was a time of like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? So in 2021 when the position opened up, I had, like, a four month old and I always thought that I might be teaching at some point. But that definitely kind of like pushed me into, like applying. And, yeah, when we came to Vancouver, I was interviewed just on Zoom, so I kind of came sight unseen. Yeah, it was all kind of like new experiences, and also kind of like reorienting myself and kind of re identifying myself from, again, just being fully an artist to like, how do I figure out, like, this teaching self of myself, you know. And I had always kind of taught, like workshops and stuff while I was touring, because I was often touring in conjunction, like touring at like university performing art centres, so there would be like, engagement with students coming into the performances and workshops and artist talks. So there was something that was kind of always adjacent to, kind of getting into academia. And I think it helped that I had that track history. But teaching fully, like building a syllabus and stuff, was definitely new for me.
Am Johal 3:40
Yeah, yeah. And luckily, you had a lot of colleagues who were starting roughly at the same time or just before, so a number of you have been very, very new to the school, which is really great. It's a great energy at the school right now.
Miwa Matreyek 4:00
Yeah, and several with young kids too. So I think that really helped to kind of like feel grounded, or feel like we have common experiences of figuring things out together.
Am Johal 4:08
Yeah, yeah, wondering if we can chat about how did you first get... Did you know that you wanted to be an artist? Were you always experimenting with work when you were younger, making things and performing?
Miwa Matreyek 4:21
Yeah. I feel like, as an artist, at some point, you look back and can see, like, the trajectory, like, you know, this like line to when you were just, like, doodling and, you know, tinkering. So I feel like I definitely see that from when I was a kid. I mean, when I was a kid, I feel like I would put on, I would, like, figure out how to make, basically, like a cranky. Which, I'm not sure if you know what a cranky is, it's basically like a box with, like, two things that you can wind, have a long piece of paper that's kind of winding for the other to have, like, a little story that gets revealed as you like, turn the pegs right. So I've always loved tinkering. I've always loved image making and putting on some kind of show, like, maybe not like a performer, because I don't have a background in performance. I just happen to perform my own work. But I've always, like, loved that kind of problem solving and tinkering and creating images. And I feel like my work still is like very much, you know, rooted in that it's like that tinkering, figuring things out. How do I make something at a layer of complexity and make something that's like magical? Like magical is like, kind of a fluffy word, but I'm鈥� I feel like I'm always looking for magic. Still.
Am Johal 5:35
And when did you start making work and showing it? Like right out of high school or...
Miwa Matreyek 5:52
Oh no, no, no. From high school鈥� And I think part of it was that, so I grew up in the Bay Area. I grew up in Japan until age 11 or so. We moved to the Bay Area. So I was like, you know, just between like, San Francisco and San Jose and Redwood City. But the high school that I went to, didn't really have a good art program. I took an art class in high school, but it didn't really seem like a viable thing. It was kind of like, whereas my physics teacher really cared, and he, like, you know, really supported us learning, like, took us to go see, like, Star Trek movies, you know, actually connected us with grad students at Stanford. So we could shadow them and like, see their work. And I would go to the observatory there, and like, take pictures of the moon, and like, Jupiter and stuff. And so I definitely always had an interest in the sciences. So actually, going into undergrad, I was actually a physics major, like, very much inspired from my physics teacher at high school. And after having done that for two years, I felt like it was like, I think there was always kind of an inevitability that I was gonna end up in the arts, and I was in denial of it, because I was like, that's not a viable thing to do. Kind of feeling very practical minded as like, I don't know a Japanese kid or Asian kid, not that my parents put pressure on me, but I think I put pressure on myself. But then, yeah, from my second or kind of going into my third year in undergrad, I switched to art. And in the arts, I was just kind of taking a broad spectrum of things like photo, painting, printmaking, you know, digital illustration. And then collage became a way that I could kind of combine all these things and, like, cut them out and put them back together into, like collage and assemblage. And at the time, I was also, like, very much interested in kind of, like riot girl, kind of punk culture and like zine making. So like, taking things that I've made, and some found things, photos and drawings and found things and like making Xerox copies and using degradation to kind of like turn them into, like, zine or prints, was something that was... That was like, sort of like the beginning of my like, the practice that came out of that. And then once I started making collages, and then I made collage on the computer, I realised how easy it is to move it. And that kind of led into animation. And then once I started making animation, I realised that I was kind of drawn to always, like, kind of integrating myself into it somehow. It's like, you know, like a photo of myself. But then, like combining all these buildings on top of my head or something. So that led into me, just like videoing myself, rotoscoping it, so cutting out my figure, or, like, just my hand or just my foot or whatever, and then creating, like, this kind of surrealist moving image animation that also has a layer of like, gesture and performance into it. And then that led into, like, you know, doing live performance with collage. So it's sort of like this throughline of, like, adding complexity. How do I, like, add a little bit of magic or a little bit of liveness into things.
Am Johal 8:40
And wonder if you can speak a little bit to how your practice has evolved from when you were first showing work to now, because obviously, you've been at various universities, you've been exposed to other artists as well. But how your thinking also has shifted in the making of the work and the kind of material you're playing with.
Miwa Matreyek 9:05
Yeah. So I feel like my work had always had a little bit of like this, like humanity versus nature, or like this, like contentious relationship that we have, and this complex relationship that we have, and just kind of we have in this contemporary world. And I feel like there was something about it, kind of like always being couched in the more kind of a magical, kind of fantastical, childlike space. But I feel like as I continue to make work, realising sort of the power that this kind of performance that mixes the fantastical and physical can feel kind of immediate for the audience, realising that I want to use that medium to say something with it. So I think kind of coming to that awareness and like finding what I want to address with that has been sort of like the evolution or the growth with the practice. This show was kind of like very much inspired by my awe of the universe, which鈥� So I've always like, I feel like that kind of interest in physics and the science kind of re emerges as like, how do I tell this in like, a very physical, visceral, imagistic way. And then Infinitely Yours is very much sort of dealing with my climate grief and its images of the climate crisis, just kind of like condensed into a 27 minute performance. So within that piece there's like, wildfires and flooding and oil spills and pollution and garbage everywhere, like plastic garbage everywhere. And how do I kind of like reconcile with that?
Am Johal 10:34
I'm going to come back to that piece in particular because it's one of your more recent pieces. But I wanted to bring up these places while you were an emerging artist. Places like REDCAT and others that were sort of important to the development of your practice, and wonder if you can speak to鈥� Whether it's REDCAT or other places that were sort of important in terms of your trajectory of making work as an artist.
Miwa Matreyek 10:59
Sure. So for the REDCAT, I want to contextualise that I spoke about undergrad, which was UC Santa Barbara, and then grad school was , which is just outside of Los Angeles, and that's where I've, like, developed the medium that I have now, of like animation and performance. I went in for experimental animation program, which, additionally, I was part of the Integrated Media program. So it was sort of like, if you're an animator who's interested in coding, or if you're a composer who is interested in audience participatory installation, it was sort of like this catch all place where you could be鈥� You could have conversations and see work that was a little bit outside of, just like, what could be kind of myopic practice, of like being just within one department where, you know. Like in the animation school, it could be like, we just talk about walk cycles, we talk about frame rates, but then it's like, how do we have conversations outside of that? How do you get critique on your work from like dancers and like theater people and writers? So I think that was one of the things that helped kind of open up my practice, as well as just like, finding collaborators while I was in grad school. So post CalArts, and this is like a common, like, common trajectory for a lot of people who graduate from CalArts, you just rolled down the hill into Los Angeles, so I did that. And there's definitely, like, a wonderful community of, like, recent grads and like people who had been out not long for CalArts. So those are sort of the folks that, you know, we kind of supported each other, like, you know, a lot of them found spaces and fest鈥� Like, smaller festivals and stuff like that. REDCAT, which is the Roy Edna and CalArts Theater, which opened, I think while I was in school, or just before. Because I was in grad school from 2004 to 2007. So that's in downtown Los Angeles, and even though it has the CalArts name in it, it's not necessarily like, it's not a theatre for CalArts. It's not like it only shows student work. It barely shows student work. But you know, it's like an international performing arts presentation theatre. And Mark Murphy, who was the executive director at the time, also he was there for the founding of, and, like, you know, the early kind of conception of REDCAT. He made sure that there was a support for the Los Angeles Community, the arts community. As I graduated and kind of being in proximity with REDCAT, I showed first in the studio series, which is like the work in progress, emerging artist presentation series festival. And I feel like each person got, like, maybe 10 to 12 minutes to show, like a little excerpt of something on a stage, on the professional stage, get, you know audience and like show, get, like documentation of your work. But you know, that's the one that's very much sort of like for the emerging artists. The next level was Now Festival, and it's a three week festival, with each weekend having two or three artists at a time, and you get, like, more financial support to complete the work. And that's, again, like a work in progress festival, but sort of like emerging into more established artists showing their work and then... And then eventually, I got my own shows, so kind of feeling that step by step support and kind of being given like this kind of like ladder to kind of go up each rung. Mark Murphy has also written like a number of like recommendation letters for me or from a theatre company for grants and stuff like that. So like really feeling that kind of support, for supporting, yeah, for assisting the emerging artists in Los Angeles through the REDCAT,
Am Johal 14:27
Yeah, yeah. I want to come back to your work, Infinitely Yours, because it's one of the more recent works that you've done. And if you could speak a little bit more to how you conceptualised it and the development of the work before it ever was performed.
Miwa Matreyek 14:46
Infinitely Yours. Another context I want to build in this is that while I was in CalArts, I started collaborating with a directing student named and music composer performer student named , otherwise known as Anna Oxygen. And so we met in the Integrated Media program, and we started collaborating. And it was work that had nowhere that, like it wasn't for homework for, you know, it wasn't a project in any of our classes. It was sort of independent. And we started making, you know, 15, 20, minute performances, multimedia performances, that integrated theatre, animation and music, live music. And we had so much fun making that. And just like being in a state of play with all these different mediums in studios that we made a piece per year that we were in school, so three pieces. And so that was also what led me to creating my鈥� Realising that, oh, I want to also do this with my own stuff. So kind of like having this parallel narrative of the theatre company that we later called and my own solo work. And they kind of like have some difference and like scale, of course, three and one, the work that we're making that led into, like more, kind of like larger theatre productions where we had to, like, hire lightning designers and producers and stuff like that. And then mine kind of just stayed in this, like very solo track. So for a while I was kind of doing one and then doing the other, and kind of like getting this balance of, like working in a collaborative space, and kind of going away back into my cave and making my own work. So going to Infinitely Yours, it kind of came out of making a piece called Half Life with my theatre company, and... Which was inspired by the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster, and thinking about like contamination and pollution, man-made disasters, safety and authority about who could tell us, like, what's safe and what's not. We say that it was inspired by, because it's not necessarily about that, but it kind of like deals with all that again, like this complexity of like our modern world in this time of climate crisis and man made disasters. And as we were finishing that, I knew that I wanted to make my own piece again, kind of like that balance of, like the group work into my own work. So from like 2015 or so, as we premiered that piece, I was starting to just like catalog and collect a whole bunch of articles about climate crisis. And I feel like maybe it was just me, but from like about 2014 or so, I felt like there was an influx of news pieces about like elements of the climate crisis, manifestation of climate crises, like wildfires and flooding and droughts, and how it just felt more and more undeniable. And I knew that I wanted to make a piece that deals with how I feel about it, so I just use an app called Evernote just to kind of catalogue and archive all these. I was touring my previous works. I didn't really have time to just sit down and start making things, but it was sort of like this world building of the real, real world, and like images of all these different aspects of climate crisis in different places in the world. I mean, being in Los Angeles, like, one of the ones I had the most immediate relationship was wildfires, right? Because I would be in a traffic jam in the summer and see like, three plumes of wildfire smoke in the distance and be like, oh, there's one up there, and there's one over there. I just have, like, a really specific image of that, yeah. So then I was just kind of collecting stuff. And then it really led until like, 2018 when I did have some space and some support and funding, as well as, like, kind of forcing myself to make a deadline by applying to Now Festival, and knew that I had to make at least, like a 20 minute section to start creating the work. And then, yeah. And then it took, like, almost all of 2019 to, like, continue working and premiere in 2020. But again, yeah, it's like, the inspiration was, like, just the news.
Am Johal 18:47
Yeah. And so I know you've travelled with the work to multiple sites, and I'm wondering if you can speak just a little bit to, As you take鈥� You develop a work, you take it out into the world, the kind of feedback and reception you've had with it.
Miwa Matreyek 19:00
So it's a work that you know integrates all these, like images, again, of climate crisis. And I talk about how it's kind of about, like my own climate grief. Often the images that's incorporated into it are things from my own life, including, like, a lot of the trash that I animate is like my own plastic trash that I filmed in these loops, I can make them look like they're tumbling out in a landfill, or kind of pouring out of my body, or rolling with the waves in the plastic filled ocean. And so there were a lot of things that felt very personal to me. And it's not a piece that really offers a solution, you know? And I wondered, like I was reading the Drawdown, I think that's what the book was called. Yeah, and kind of looking at these solutions, but I'm like, I'm not sure how to integrate that, or if it feels like I'm just kind of tacking it on. As someone who was like, maybe didn't really feel like I had authority to, like, speak on that. So I kind of consider the piece, when I perform it with the audience, as sort of like a collective exorcism of, kind of like confronting all these ways that we feel grief and, you know, these complex emotions around like what's happening in the world. As well as a little bit of, like our own choices that we make and maybe creating a feeling a catharsis, just to kind of be in a shared space with that, even if I'm not necessarily showing images of like solutions. And hopefully it leads to conversations about solutions or just awareness. But yeah, I feel like, for me, it's a鈥� It's kind of a downer piece, but I've also heard from audiences how they found it uplifting.
Am Johal 20:39
Interesting. Yeah, you know, we had John Vaillant on as a guest, and he wrote the book called , which is about the Fort McMurray fire. And he talks a little bit about, you know, families losing their homes and their family photos and children and, like, the loss of the personal archive, and at the same time, the sort of madness and proliferation of the fire, produces its own natural archive. And this sort of dissonance that happens. It's quite a page turner for a book about, you know, fire. Certainly, California has had more than its share of wildfires, the ones that get to the edge of the Getty and all of that, it's very intense to see the physical side. And of course, in BC here, we've had Lytton burn down. All of it. I've had a chance to visit there, and also at Fort McMurray when the fires happened there, and just seeing the physical side of the aftermath, the burnt out cars, all of that. It's very... The feeling is very apocalyptic. And yeah, it does鈥� There's so many things that are unregistered or not fully thought through in terms of the impacts we're going to be going through in the next few years. So in many ways, I suppose artistic interventions can help us think that through.
Miwa Matreyek 22:00
Yeah. And it's also fascinating. It strikes me every time I perform it, that there's some image in there that feels like, really immediate in the moment. Of course, like it opens with wildfire. Because, you know, of course, it's like what feels like for me the closest, and I've had friends who've like, lost their homes and the wildfires. But then, you know, as I was making it, as performing it, you know, there's, like, the fires in like Australia and the Amazon, it's just like, it just feels like, oh, this image is, of course, like, what's in the news right now, again, repeatedly. And other images in the piece too. So it's kind of intense to share that and know that it's like, has this, you know, like this, like, oof. I see in the news and I see in the performance.
Am Johal 22:46
Yeah. So wondering, just in terms of, you know, arriving into a school and beginning to teach here, there is all these new faculty members here at the school, which is really fantastic. And wondering how you think through a curriculum that resonates today in the area of the school you're in, and just kind of, you know, given your own influences, how to鈥� There's so many new technologies that come into play from when the school was first set up, and so trying to think that through, and also kind of maintain and rejuvenate its own histories to be relevant as a school.
Miwa Matreyek 23:28
I mean, you know, I'm sure any of the new faculty, but I think any faculty at any point, because it's like the school has a, like line, this, through line that's happening, and you kind of drop into it, so you kind of learn about the history. But then you can't necessarily do that, like you have to find your own way. So I am, like, really grateful to be an area where we're鈥� Wlad, I think is maybe approaching his fifth year, and I think is maybe, like, has been here for six or seven years, so we're all relatively new and trying to redefine this program with like, who we are. And, you know, of course, like, I don't even come from a theatre background. I come as an animator who happens to perform and also have a theatre company, so I have like, that touring experience as well. But you know, there's a lot in theatre that I don't actually know about. So I'm trying to find my niche of what I could teach, which I think is about, like, again, like that, tinkering and problem solving and, of course, image making. And I think also play, like, a playfulness that I'd like to bring to things. So yeah, we're like, proposing new classes that's kind of centred more around moving image, and moving image for performance and installation, and that's been really fun to do. And it's also interesting, kind of, like, because I, you know, other areas of the school, like, let's say dance, it's very clear what you're coming in for and what you want to do, like you want to dance. And I know like within that there's, like, some variation, but for the theatre production design area, I feel like it's a lot more open ended. And there are some people who are, like very technical, like, they want to, you know, do like lighting design, or they want to, like operate, you know, like video software. To people who are like, very much in the handmade world, or people who want to be stage managers. And it's been really interesting to kind of like work with different kinds of people and see them, you know. Some people, especially in their first year, I might see them struggle in one class, but then kind of, like, find their niche and, like, really blossom. And sometimes that's my class where I'm like, oh, wait, like you're really enjoying using Photoshop and After Effects and, like, doing really cool things. So that's been really fun, yeah. And I think also that with a lot of what we do in the classes there is this like, kind of state of, like layered problem solving. That's like, how do we build this analog thing, and then how do we conceive of, like a digital animation that's in context with an analog thing, and then make a performance where you kind of take the digital back into analog space. And it seems like the students are having fun with that, which I'm really thankful for now.
Am Johal 25:59
In terms of, you know, taking on a job inside of a university, I speak to a lot of you know, artist friends of mine who have, you know, moved into faculty roles, that kind of thing. The challenge, of course, always ends up being, is, how do you carve out the time and space to continue producing your own work when the demands of the institution around teaching, research, administration can sometimes get in the way of that. How have you tried to carve out space to be able to continue to make your own work?
Miwa Matreyek 26:28
Yeah, so I think that's a question I'm still trying to figure out. And yeah, I'm not sure if I ever have an answer because, also having a young child, she's three and a half years old, so... I feel like there was, like, an Instagram meme-y thing that I saw that was like, oh, about, where it's like, you can't do more than two things at once. And, you know, teaching and, like, you know, family, something has to suffer in order for me to have it. Well, I don't want to use the word suffer, but, you know, something is like, kind of carved away in order to make this third thing happen. And I have done that a little bit like I've... Did video projection design for an Opera Festival in South Carolina, , last... That premiered last May. So that was like, kind of carving time away a little bit from the teaching, and mainly from, like, doing any bedtime or anything with my daughter for like, you know, two and a half months or so to premiere this thing. And, you know, there's a way that it's really hard to do that. Last summer I taught intersession, so that kind of carved away from, like, time, my creative time. So I'm really looking forward to having this summer. You asked me earlier if I'm going anywhere. I'm like, well, just a little bit, but I really just want to be here while my daughter's in daycare, to have, like, that daytime time to actually, like, have creative time for myself. At this point, I'm just trying to figure out how I can, you know, I'm not sure if what I make will be just experiments. Sometimes the experiments I do in the summer is just kind of leading into things I might do in class, right? But still, like, feels kind of like my own, but it's kind of just like setting myself up to have, like, a more of a demo and example leading into class. So I think a lot of the ideas I have right now that I want to do are just stuff like that, not necessarily, like, I'm making a giant new piece that normally takes me, like, a year or more, like, basically working full time on it, which I don't have that time now. Or if I'm able to, like, make it just stretched out over summer, like many, many summers, I think right now, I just really want to reconnect with my creative self, or my kind of witchy self again, and just play.
Am Johal 28:33
Have you ever in the past, or would you in the future, collaborate with a physicist?
Miwa Matreyek 28:41
I would love to, yeah. I mean, I think that if I did, you know, like, if I'm kind of staying more in line with, like, my own performances, that would be more like, again, like this imagistic and, like, performative, gestural, physical way of trying to understand something. There's a small planetarium at Griffith Park in Los Angeles, at the top of the hill. It's this beautiful old building. And, you know, there's a planetarium, you can see a planetary show. But there's also, like, you know, all this, like, displays and installations that, like, talks about space. There's an observatory too, and they have like, you know, special events where you could go into the observatory and, like, look at the moon or whatever. Or whatever. But there's a room that has displays about various planets, and there's like, these scales that you could go on and they could, you know, like, when you stand on it, it tells you, like, this is how much you would weigh on, you know, mercury, because of, like, the gravity there, versus how much you'd weigh on Jupiter. And those kinds of ways of, like, kind of thinking about what your body feels like, and these like, different macro and micro spaces is really fascinating to me. And I think that's something I'm trying to approach with my performances, often. Both with some of the pieces that I made, but I've also made smaller things for commissions where I'm like, going from like鈥� The macro, into the micro, into quarks, into like the unknown, with my performance. And I think that kind of, like visual problem solving, performance problem solving is really interesting for me.
Am Johal 30:06
Do you have some things you're working on now, or you're planning to do in the future, even if they haven't started?
Miwa Matreyek 30:12
I feel like there's only like rough ideas. I mean, there's a lot of, like, toy theatre stuff that I like to do that's kind of leading up to classes I'd be teaching, as well as, like, moving image. I'm like, maybe I should just make a short film. It's a lot easier than performance. But there's also a way that I'm fascinated... But I feel like I've, with especially my older work, that was kind of what I said, like, more magical. I've kind of been kind of like TYA adjacent, like theatre for young audience adjacent. And there's a way, especially now that I have a child, to be like, maybe I embrace that and make just like a total, like, you know, a show for kids. I think that some of my newer work could be for a young audience, and definitely has had young audiences. But there's some images in it that could be scary, because it's about climate crisis, or, you know, there's like, creation and destruction. So I feel like from like, maybe older elementary school up, it's all it's all good. It like leads into, like, really interesting conversations, but maybe there's one that I make that's just like magical colours and shapes.
Am Johal 31:11
Miwa, thank you so much for sharing some of your work on Below the Radar.
Miwa Matreyek 31:16
Thank you. Thank you for this time and your generosity for letting me speak about my work.
Samantha Walters 31:26
Below the Radar is a knowledge democracy podcast created by 丁香园AV鈥檚 Vancity Office of Community Engagement. Thanks for listening to our episode with Miwa Matreyek. To find out more about Miwa鈥檚 work, head to our show notes. If you would like to support our podcast, you can donate at the link in the description below. Your generous donation will help support the podcast's activities and associated public events with 丁香园AV's Vancity Office of Community Engagement. Thanks again for listening, and we鈥檒l catch you next time on Below the Radar.