¶¡ÏãÔ°AV

Below the Radar Transcript

Episode ##: Community-Centred Curating — with Moroti George

Speakers: Kathy Feng, Am Johal, Moroti George

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Kathy Feng  0:02  
Hello listeners. I'm Kathy Feng with Below the Radar, a knowledge democracy podcast. Below the Radar is recorded on the territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples.

On this episode of Below the Radar, our host Am Johal is joined by Moroti George, Director/Curator of , and Curator at . Together they chat about how Moroti became interested in the arts, their experience working in two different art spaces, and their approach to curating in Greater Vancouver. Enjoy the episode! 

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Am Johal  0:38  
Hello, welcome to Below the Radar. Delighted that you could join us again. This week we have a special guest Moroti George. Welcome, Moroti.

Moroti George  0:47  
Thank you. Thank you Am for inviting me to do this. I'm super excited.

Am Johal  0:51  
Yeah, I was, I was hoping to get in touch with you and schedule this a while back. You presented as part of Participedia, but I've also seen you around the school and other places as well. Maybe we can start with you introducing yourself a little bit.

Moroti George  1:07  
Yeah, my name is Moroti. I would say that my day job, which I went to school for, is I'm a curator. I am currently the Artistic Director at Gallery Gachet, which is a gallery in the Downtown Eastside. Gachet is a very community centred gallery by its mandate, but we are very much focused on expanding what the idea of community centred means, especially in relation to the Downtown Eastside. A lot of what I have been doing during my tenure at Gachet is really rooted in the idea of knowledge and, like, epistemology, and like where, where knowledge emerges, and like what we consider knowledge. Especially in a city like Vancouver, which has a very theory heavy focus for the arts. So I'm trying to, like, find the intersections between lived experience and, like, theoretical slash academic knowledge in a gallery space. But we're also very much focused on, like, expanding what else we can do as an art institution situated in the Downtown Eastside. So I am the artistic director of Gachet. I am also the curator at the Black Arts Centre in Surrey. And the Black Arts Centre is, I would say Vancouver's first—and as of right now, only—Black youth led and run artist-run centre. We are very much focused on showcasing the works of Black artists in Vancouver and the greater BC area. And also like creating a space where community can be fostered. So the Black Art Centre and like its based to and alongside its mandates, we're also very much focused on the idea of what else a gallery space slash cultural institution can do. And that's something that we are still exploring. It's funny, kind of, going between Gachet and BLAC. Gachet being very much a 35 year old institution where everything is like set in stone and like, BLAC being very young and new, filled with young new people, and trying to navigate how we are, we can make things work. So it's kind of nice to have my foot in both doors. 

Am Johal  3:24  
As a busy person. 

Moroti George  3:25  
Yeah. And I'm also an educator, I am taking a break from teaching this fall. But I have... I used to be a teaching assistant at ¶¡ÏãÔ°AV while I was doing my masters. And recently, I was a sessional instructor at Emily Carr teaching art history and criticism. So yeah. 

Am Johal  3:46  
Yeah, maybe we can start with the— How did you first get interested in art? Have you, were you interested as a young person, as a toddler? Or how did—what was your entry point into the world of art?

Moroti George  3:57  
I think my relationship with art is very complicated. I am very interested in knowledge. I was a reader when I was young, I was very interested in languages. And alongside languages I'm very interested in like translations, and like translating things between languages and history. So I found that when I was younger, I was really looking a lot at historical archives and like, I had to do the classics because of school and stuff. But I was also interested in Nigeria—and because I'm Nigerian—so I was interested in like Nigerian literature. And like the Nigerian archive, which very little of which... Even in Nigeria, is not very accessible. And if it is accessible, it's not very thorough. So I guess at some point in my life, I would say, when I was in high school, I kind of began to see the links between, like, what has been written and like history, the recorded histories of people and like the visual representation of them too. And this was also when I was kind of becoming very interested in the West. I used to travel as a younger person, but I wasn't really aware of like racial dynamics and understanding of what like Blackness was around that time because I was in Nigeria with a lot of Black people. So I will say that my interest in arts, kind of, began from the connection I saw between like histories and like visual language and material culture. And also just a lack of—and I know people say this a lot—but like a general lack of representation. Not just about blackness, but like, about, like many other bodies of colour. And if their representations were in the history books, very little would be said about, like, what and who they are in the now. So I would say, roughly, that's how my journey into the art started. I didn't know you could—I should have known, but I didn't know you could actually study art history in university. And I was lucky enough to go to ¶¡ÏãÔ°AV. ¶¡ÏãÔ°AV is very much the—what do we say we are? The community-engaged school?

Am Johal  6:12  
We used to anyway.

Moroti George  6:13  
¶¡ÏãÔ°AV has like a very diverse everything. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it in an institution. But when I got into ¶¡ÏãÔ°AV, I was studying poli sci with a minor in history and Italian studies. I took an art history course as an elective, and I was like, "Wow, I thought I knew a lot but I didn't know enough." And my professor at the time, Denise Oleksijczuk— 

Am Johal  6:43  
Yes. Denise was your gateway drug into art. (laughs)

Moroti George  6:49  
It was so funny. It was so funny because—and we have kind of built this relationship, like, over time while I was there in undergrad and grad school. And I'm... Sometimes I'm like, "This woman, does she know that she changed my life?" Because I did speak— 

Am Johal  7:03  
She will now on Below the Radar. (laughs)

Moroti George  7:05  
Yeah? (laughs) I spoke to her, and she told me about... What was the name of the program? Arts, Performance and Cinema Studies program at ¶¡ÏãÔ°AV, which I'm finding isn't like any other art history program in, like, the ones at UBC and Emily Carr in the sense that the Art, Performance and Cinema Studies program was very much focused on the now. Just like contemporary art—which, I do like art history, and I like the old stuff. But sometimes I'm like, "This is so boring. I want to know what else is happening and like how people are representing themselves." And yeah, that's how I studied art. I did some internships at the , and . And I was super lucky to get into BLAC while I was at the Or. And in the last semester of my MA program, I got into Gachet. So yeah. 

Am Johal  8:05  
Nice, nice. So let's start with Gallery Gachet. It's got such a unique mandate in terms of... Alongside the other artists run centres, we have this strong history in the city, and Gachet's done such important work in terms of opening up the gallery space for many artists who wouldn't otherwise have a space to show. And wondering if you can speak a little bit to that unique mandate in history of Gachet? 

Moroti George  8:31  
Yeah. So Gachet was a—is still a gallery that was very much dedicated to, kind of, showcasing the art practices of people living with mental health. And like, living in a society where there are a lot of social stigmas, including like, most especially poverty. So at first it was funded by Vancouver Coastal Health. And this is a history that I decided to just dig deeper into, because I kind of want to know the institution I am working with and like aligning myself to so seriously. But around some time, I forget what time exactly, Gachet got it's funding cut by Vancouver Coastal Health. So, before they used to do... Like the exhibitions were just like exhibitions. They weren't really what Gachet was primarily about. It was more so about providing studio space to artists living with mental health struggles and like artists living in poverty, and amongst other things. So after the cut by Vancouver Coastal Health, the Gachet collective, and the staff of Gachet, which notably include Cecily Nicholson— 

Am Johal  9:48  
Cecily, yeah. 

Moroti George  9:50  
Vancouver icon. It's kind of weird having a job that she also had at some point in her life. I'm like, oh, wow, this is no pressure at all. But they kind have pivoted how the gallery would—how the space and the organization would function. So as opposed to doing this really big good, and providing space and like equipment for artists, marginalized artists and their city, it became an art institution itself. And with that, just to adhere to a lot of the requirements of art granting bodies, we did become very exhibition—like, it became a traditional gallery space. But we were still doing the other things that Gachet is known for, alongside presenting exhibitions every year.

Am Johal  10:40  
Yeah, yeah. And so in walking into an institution, which has this rich history, this very special relationship in the Downtown Eastside community, what's been your approach in terms of, you know, your role coming in as a curator—artistic director, I can't remember the exact title—but in terms of how you approach that work alongside community?

Moroti George  11:04  
Yeah, I think for me, the first thing I did when I got into Gachet was I just took a—I'm kind of obsessed with archives. So I spent close to the first two weeks of my tenure, looking through Gachet's archive. I'm looking at how things used to be done. Um, I did also have a lot of community knowledge, because Gachet was also closed for two years during the pandemic. So when Demi and I got into Gachet, we actually had to kind of build everything from the ground up. Demi is Gachet's Executive Director, such an amazing human being. So Demi was dealing with how to at least keep the lights on in the gallery. And I was dealing with, like, the artistic stuff as Artistic Director. So I was looking at how the gallery used to do things. And even though I found a lot of amazing stuff, I also did find like, a lot of stuff that I viewed as outdated. And I got opinions from other people, and they were like, "This is outdated." And I was also thinking about how Gachet is situating itself as an organization in the Downtown Eastside. A lot of people, validly so, believe that... And Gachet is also, like, in the heart of the Downtown Eastside. We're not like inside Gastown, or like, inside Chinatown. We're right on Hastings. So a lot of people believe that like, oh, because of what is going on in the Downtown Eastside, all the buildings there should be dedicated to social services. And I... As much as I agree, to some extent, I believe that the people in the Downtown Eastside also need a space to actually nourish their creative spirit, spirits. And like, there is a lot of community culture and like, culture is an important part of any community. So there needs to be a cultural space in the Downtown Eastside.

So while I was looking at all of that kind of stuff, I was thinking about Gachet's programming and how, to some extent, people living in the Downtown Eastside do not only want to hear about what it's like living in the Downtown Eastside. And part of the reason why I came to that decision was also thinking about how Gachet used to run in the past, and like the things that used to be done in the past. And I feel... I don't feel great, saying my predecessors shortcomings, but there was not a lot of representation. They were not really looking at nuances. And while I was thinking about, like, marginalized artists, and social stigma, I was thinking a lot about the nuances and how a lot of these things are, like, political after effects of colonization, anti-Blackness, the genocide of Indigenous peoples in Canada, which also has an effect in the Downtown Eastside. So I was thinking a lot about how we can work with artists, and like, showcase the works of artists in our exhibitions which addressed this. And some of these artists who addressed this happen to be academic artists, like artists who know how art industries work. I feel like there is space for them at Gachet, but there is also space for like, artists who do not have this experience. Like artists who just want to show their work to people. So that's kind of the fine line I'm trying to draw alongside the Gachet team that like, we have space for both of these artists in our exhibition space and like, in our programming year. But we're also thinking about very specific community engagement. We're working with the Washington [Community] Markets, for example, which I think is close by here, kind of like across the street. We're showing the works of, and also paying the artists were kind of showing their works in the Market and like having the works for sale. We're doing stuff like the Oppenheimer show, which is a show that has existed at Gachet for a long time. It happens at Oppenheimer Park and people in the community make art and we put their works on the wall.

And one thing that I find, I think is the best thing that Gachet does is kind of our . So every Monday, we have two facilitators in the space, and people just come in and make art. And it's really lovely. I don't work on Mondays, but like, most of the time, I just go to hang out with people. It's a very interesting thing to, kind of, witness in the sense that there are people who would always come. And there are people who would just drop in who live in the community and be like, "Oh, I felt like I wanted to paint today." So they will just paint. So I think that that's just— With regards to our specific programming, that's how I'm thinking about being community centred. But there is like, so much more that we can do. And I'm finding a lot of the time... I'm finding mostly actually, that being in our bubble, and like saying, "Oh, we are Gachet and like we have a history, so we know what's right." It doesn't really work. And a lot of what I've been trying to do during my tenure, and with the help of Demi is to kind of open the space up. Because there is a rich, long history of organizing in the Downtown Eastside and so many people with knowledge that they if they're not asked, they wouldn't let people know. So, kind of, trying to reach out to people, and like, bring people in to, like, figure out how we can do better, at least while I'm there. And like hopefully the next person that comes after me would have an idea of what happened during my tenure and during Demi's tenure, and how they can also contribute something worthwhile to the gallery's history. So yeah.

Am Johal  16:56  
Yeah, it's interesting, your words really resonate with me in terms of the role of arts and culture in the Downtown Eastside neighbourhood. Look at the Heart of the City Festival every year, and just you know, being based at an art school where many people in the neighbourhood come in and go to the gallery. When I was involved, with my friend Allison Dunnet, starting , which takes us back to, like, 1998, when we went around to meet with nonprofit groups and they're like, "Oh, you want to study like philosophy and art. Like this is—I don't know if that's going to work here in the neighbourhood." And we did meetings with people who lived in the neighbourhood at the Carnegie Centre, many of whom are going to the library and reading books all day. People were like, "Yeah, we totally want to do it." And they had specific suggestions on what they wanted to study, and all those kinds of things. And so, and we got free tickets to go to the Vancouver Art Gallery. At that time, it was the masks of the Northwest Coast exhibit was on. We actually got free tickets to go to the opera, to see Tosca. We had the director of the opera come in and give the whole background. And so our students knew more about the opera than probably most people in that audience and were able to go see it. And so I think, once we try to reduce at least some of the barriers that are possible to reduce, some people have the opportunity to engage, that people are going to enjoy it in a way that anybody else would enjoy it. And so I do think I agree with you in terms of those kinds of opportunities, particularly in arts and culture, just a rich history here. Hence this neighbourhood.

You had mentioned that Gachet is doing the Oppenheimer show, and also some publications that contextualize Downtown Eastside in cultural production. I'm wondering if you can speak to that a little bit. 

Moroti George  18:41  
Yeah. So the Oppenheimer show is, like I said before, it's something that has—is a long part of Gachet's history. And three years ago, before my tenure, there was a publication that was put out about the show. And it kind of showed the artworks are made by the artists in the community in the show. And then it also, kind of, talked about—because I think this was during COVID, like displacement and like just when everything and Crab Park was happening, so the publication will really address that. And for this publication, I'm really thinking about what has happened three years past that first publication, kind of, I'm thinking about the continuum in regards to that. And even though the artwork is going to be there, I'm also thinking about, what's this artwork and like the fact that these were made by bodies and the Downtown Eastside, what's that actually represents? So I'm thinking thematically about, like, the current state of the Downtown Eastside. I'm thinking about commemoration in the sense that even though the Downtown Eastside is a place where a lot of great stuff happens, I think that it's actually works against what a lot of people are trying to do to not talk about the other not so great stuff that happens in the Downtown Eastside. I think that we shouldn't romanticize anything, like, just... Things don't have to be perfect for them to actually get helped by the state, or like, be viewed as places with people and people that have agency. So I'm thinking about how a lot of the systems of power and the things that occur in spaces and institutions outside of the Downtown Eastside, misogyny and homophobia and just racism, also find its way into the Downtown Eastside and like within the community. And I'm thinking especially about how that kind of shapes slash affects the communal knowledge of the Downtown Eastside, and the people who produce things that aren't given their flowers.

So I'm thinking about that with regards to commemoration, and like, this publication by inviting some Indigenous women. One of them being the lady who carved the totem pole at Pigeon Park, to kind of speak a bit to who they are, like, what their embodiment means in relation to this country's history. In relation to their actual, like, positionality in the Downtown Eastside. So that's going to be one section of the publication. Hopefully—I'm meeting with the designer next week. So hopefully, it's not going to be too hefty. But even if I think it's something good for the archive, but I'm also working with a lot of organizers at the Downtown Eastside. We're planning on working with and and , and . Especially Yarrow, because I think the relationship between Chinatown and the Downtown Eastside has been very conflicted and complicated, and I think that the work that Yarrow is doing is very important. So I'm also thinking about, like, the state of organizing in the Downtown Eastside, and what it means to do good work, or like, just to work in general in the Downtown Eastside. And all of that is going to be framed in relation to just the precarious events that have happened with regards to the street sweeps. And that is going to be represented by—I don't know if you know him, Ryan [Sudds]. I feel bad for forgetting his last name. But I met him this Monday, and he made the Stop the Sweeps documentary. So we're going to have some images from the documentary in the publication with some writing about community and like, just what the movie slash documentary actually intends to do. So yeah, it's a very hefty, ambitious project, and knowing that as I speak to more and more people, I genuinely believe that it's going to turn out perfect. Good, at least.

Am Johal  22:51  
And yeah, we've partnered on some programming with Yarrow Intergenerational Society over the years, they're wonderful to work with. This episode won't come out until February or March of 2024. I wonder if there's any future programming you wanted to kind of highlight, or what you have in motion, possibly? 

Moroti George  23:06  
Yeah. What I have in motion. I'm going to have a show about canoes at Gachet. It's a very interesting show. One of them—one of the artists is Indigenous, and one of them is Filipino. So we're thinking a lot about like canoes and embodied knowledge, and just like material culture. I'm still working on that show thematically in my head, so I just know that there are going to be canoes in the Gachet space. (laughs) Another thing that we're working on that I'm very excited about is an archive show that I am co-curating with the VANDU team to kind of celebrate their 25 year history. And I think that generally, the art world in Vancouver—and this is not something I'm ashamed of—like, archives are having a moment. And I am, kind of, interested in looking at the politics of the VANDU archive. VANDU is a very important organization, but also has a complicated history. And I'm not trying to present one perspective in this VANDU archive exhibition. So that's what will also be open in February, and then we're closed for two months from renovation.

Am Johal  24:28  
Yeah, VANDU is such an important organization in the neighbourhood. I remember going to a meeting, and once again, like around '97 or '98. And it was, you know, Bud Osborn, Ann Livingston, lots of folks, Dean Wilson and others. People making sandwiches. They were at the corner of Powell and Jackson, I think, above the Living Room Drop-in centre at the time, and Living Room doesn't exist anymore, I don't think. But it was up the stairs and the meetings would happen on Saturday mornings, just you know in the middle of an overdose crisis at that time. And, you know, just like we have the drug poisoning crisis right now. But, did such important work—an unfunded organization for many years. Vancouver Coastal Health did not provide funding at all, it was a massive fight to be recognized in that sense as well. Wondering if we can speak a little bit to the wonderful new institution, the Black Arts Centre. I was at the opening a couple months back, and it was just bursting with people. It was a really—people were so excited and so happy, it's right by Surrey Central Skytrain station. It's almost like you need a bigger space already.

Moroti George  25:37  
Yes, I actually, for some reason, hopefully, as my career continues to grow, I would be in charge of a bigger gallery space. But as of right now, I love small gallery spaces. And thank you for coming for that opening. But yeah, the Black Arts Centre, it's me and five other—wait sorry, including me five people, Rebecca Bair, Hafiz Akinlusi, Vanessa Fajemisin, and Arshi Chadha. And we're all young Black people. We are... I don't want to take credit for the Black Arts Centre's emergence. But it was founded by Becky Bair, and kind of created out of this lack of a space for Black people to showcase their works. Aside from that, like a space for like, Black people to just be. And this kind of came out of the horrific events of 2020, and just what she noticed as... Like, literally even having to go outside and be like, just look at things. People being like, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry about everything." Which is a good thing, like thank you to the people who felt like that. But like sometimes there is, it is important for Black people to have a space where they are not feeling patronized or like hyper—not feeling hyper visible. So the space is meant to be a safe space for Blackness, and a gallery space second. Like, it's a space for Blackness first and a gallery space second. We're not even thinking of ourselves as a gallery space. We don't call ourselves the "Black Art Gallery," it's a centre. So we're really thinking a lot about the multifaceted nature of Blackness and the different ways that that affects like Black community building, and not affects but like, is represented in Black community building and also Black cultural production. So we're really hoping that we can make space for like all sorts of art made by Black artists, art relating to Blackness, to be featured in this space. We, we will have exhibitions, but we're going to... We're very much thinking about like workshops and events and all of that stuff. And our first exhibition, I don't know—wait, this is not a bad thing to say. I think this is a great thing. The first exhibition that will be in this space, we actually got the funding for it this morning. So yeah, it's going to... We did have an exhibition at the Surrey Art Gallery, but it is nice to— 

Am Johal  28:12  
I went to that too. 

Moroti George  28:13  
Yeah. But it's nice to have an actual exhibition in our own space. And that will be opened in October, and it's going to run till February. 

Am Johal  28:23  
Oh, great. I wanted to—you of course finished your masters at ¶¡ÏãÔ°AV. And wondering if you can speak a little bit to your graduate work and what you were doing there? 

Moroti George  28:34  
Yeah. So, I would say grad school for me. I think a lot of people have a very interesting relationship with graduate school. I thought I didn't have an interesting relationship with graduate school, but sometimes I think about how I was locked up in my office and my room, and not going anywhere. But I think I wouldn't have gone anywhere else for grad school except for the School for the Contemporary Arts now that I have been through the school. So naturally, my friends call me, like, academically voyeuristic, in the sense that I find myself very interested in a lot of things. But the core of my research interest is Blackness. I am very much interested in conceptualizing Blackness and like looking at Black History, and like figuring out how to best speak to the contemporary state of Blackness through my writing and to my art historical research. So despite everything I was looking at grad school, my thesis was specifically focused on Black masculinity. And at first I was worried because I was... What's the word? It's always interesting during something during research that's very closely tied to your embodiment, especially with something like Blackness. And something I'm always trying to kind of highlight slash underline in my practice is, I am just one man. I am one man who looked at a couple of sources, and this is what I am bringing forward. But there are so many other perspectives that can be brought into this.

I was looking at representations of Black men in western visual culture, from the Enlightenment slash the end of the French Revolution till now. And I was thinking about, like, the spectrum of representation that at one end of the spectrum, posed Black men as like, hyper masculine, like gods. And like, on the other end of the spectrum, posing Black men as, like, victims of circumstance and like martyrs to, like, a greater cause to some extent. To an extent, the greater cause being in the service of whiteness. And it was very... I felt like I did such heavy research for that work that I still have a hard time unpacking it after everything has happened, but it was very eye opening for me. I looked at some paintings that... It also, I think that experience also taught me not to take everything at surface level. I looked at our paintings of Black men from like, the 18th century, and like, some Black people would be like, "Wow, they were painting us in the 18th century." But like, no, you need to look at how they were painting us. It's not really like, wow, this is a good thing. It's important to read, what the image is trying to see about you and like your embodiment. And like, just how it fits into an overarching narrative from elsewhere that's trying to, like, subvert your state of being. So I think that's one thing I have learned from that project in general. I think that like representation is not enough. I think that sometimes there are a lot of burdens and like, not really good stuff that comes with being represented or like being a body in a space that has excluded your body or your people for a long time. And sometimes it's actually best to reject representation and like—unless it's on your terms, like, this is who I am, this is what I speak to. So I think this is something that would be an ongoing part of my practice for a while. I do plan on getting a PhD at some point in my life. But as of now, I really enjoy being a curator and not being super stressed out. (laughs)

Am Johal  32:42  
That sounds great. Yeah, wondering in terms of—Nigeria, of course, has a very rich contemporary art scene, lots of artists making work and circulating globally wondering if you could speak a little bit to some of the artists you're interested in from Nigeria.

Moroti George  32:58  
Yeah, I would say Nigeria does have a very rich contemporary arts culture right now. It's actually like beautiful to see. And I have like a lot of FOMO being here sometimes, because... My mom is actually trying to convince me to come back for, like, a year for this project, this one project that she found out about, and I'm like, "I can't do that. I'm so sorry. Not right now." But one of my favourite artists in Nigeria right now is actually not a visual artist. I mean, they do have a visual arts practice, but I am most interested in their writing. Their name is , they are doing such great things. And they kind of write about metaphysical, like, embodiment, and like, just what it means to be a body in relation to this world. And like being a Nigerian body, for example. So I really like how they, kind of, explore like spirituality and Blackness from this perspective that I haven't really, I haven't really seen before until I encountered their works. They're very—what's the word? They're very sure of themselves. They, they don't talk about, like, pain. And pain, which is sometimes very much tied to like Nigerian-ness, because Nigeria—like most other countries, I believe, is difficult. But like, they talk about their pain as something that they are not fetishizing, but something that was necessary for them to be who they are today. And I just really like how they approach topics of queerness. It's like topics of just being a body in like a very nuanced and important way that I think would—I think a lot of people, not just Nigerian people, should actually read their work. I just read, finished reading their memoir, . But their first book is also very, very amazing.

Another one of my favourite artists of Nigerian descent, who is actually an artist, is Abdulwasiu Salimat, who I was so privileged and like blessed enough to show at Gachet earlier this year, in the show I curated, . And they're a photographer. And when I was speaking to her about how I want to, like, frame her work in relation to my research, we were thinking a lot about just what it means to be Nigerian. Because if we think about it completely, Nigeria, in itself, is a colonial construct. And we don't really—we talk a lot about culture, like Nigerian parents are always like, "Oh, you need to respect your elders, because it's our culture," which is true. But like, what is our culture, really like? What is our culture removed from the white gaze and like the colonial imagination? So I really love her images, because they're kind of—the images I showed, and I think this also makes its way into various aspects of her practice. But her images are very much suspended in time. They kind of have this archival feeling in the sense that you don't really know if this image is meant to represent, if her images are meant to represent like, a moment pre-contact, or like, post, like an Afrofuturist future slash imagination of Nigeria. And I just really enjoy how she works with like the Black female body, which is a body that has suffered a lot from like, just the effects of like whiteness and its histories of Blackness.

So yeah, I would say those are... I can talk about this for a long time. But another good Nigerian artist that I also had the opportunity to work with—I genuinely do feel very blessed, because sometimes I'm like, "I'm a young curator, do you want to work with me?" And most of the time, people, I am yet to—knock on wood—I'm yet to have someone be like, no. But one artist that I did enjoy working with who is also Nigerian, but based in Toronto, is . And I showed him at the Surrey Art Gallery show. And he, his practice—I find that a lot of Nigerians are like multidisciplinary in their practices. But the aspects of his practice that I really found enthralling is his sculptural, his sculpture works. The works I showed were from the . And he, kind of, he travels a lot. So he collects like different objects and debris from his travels across the Atlantic. And he calls them diasporic debris. And when he puts them together in this sculpture, they are meant to, like, pay homage to the bodies, and like the goods and the knowledge that were lost by Black people in their transport, like, as they were being transported and enslaved from like Africa to like the West. So yeah. That was very broad. 

Am Johal  38:21  
Yeah, you know, you clearly bring institutional critique into your practice. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to sort of challenges and opportunities around that. 

Moroti George  38:32  
Um, I think I would start with challenges. I think institutional critique is very important. I think that a lot of people generally have a very weird relationship with being criticized. For me, I... Sometimes I actually beg to be criticized. Like some of my friends, I would show them my writing. And I'm like, "You have to give four things that you didn't like about this essay." And they're like, "What's wrong with you?" (laughs) But I genuinely, I genuinely feel like that's how we grow and like how we do better. And, like, institutional critique, I feel like just at where we are at in the culture, I think that a lot of people forget that, like institutions, no matter how big or small, are made up of bodies. And because they are made up of bodies, they have their own biases, but at the same time, they know what's right and what's wrong. So I think that like it's important to, especially like in the arts, I always like worry when we're thinking so out of the box with regards to our practices, but this is not really finding its way into like how we are running as an organization, how we do things. Like, I think that it's very important to speak truth to power. Like we can't just say, "Oh, I'm reading this. Oh, I'm doing, I'm reading that and my work covers this." And then turn around and like, be exclusionary and gatekeeper. And like, look at the world through one certain, like, point of view. And I think that this, this is very important to me with regards to like accessibility and like who is let into the space.

And also like power dynamics, because Vancouver is... It has a very long and, like, rich history of art exhibits and cultural production. And like a lot of people do come here for the opportunity to do that. But there is, kind of, a weird dynamic with regards to how many art galleries and curators exist in Vancouver versus how many artists exist in Vancouver. And that disparity, inevitably, that creates like, a lot of weird power relationships. And I find that a lot of the times, galleries in Vancouver are not doing enough. And this is something that, at Gachet, we are always thinking, like, how can we do better? How can we do better? And at some point, I actually had to say, during a meeting like, we actually need to... It's good that we're asking ourselves these questions, but like, we are genuinely doing the best we can. We just need to like, kind of build our capacity to do more. But like, I think that we have a good head on our shoulders right now. And sometimes I wish that other galleries, kind of... Especially bigger ones, kind of, had this drive to do better. Kind of, had this drive to not show the works of one specific type of artist all the time, and like actually open up their space. And this is something that I have also—a friend of mine actually asked me why I haven't gotten any guest curators into Gachet yet. And I thought about it and I was like, "Wow, I would work with different artists, or why wouldn't I work with other guest curators?" So it was actually good to receive that kind of feedback, because now I do understand I need to work with guest curators, it just doesn't have to be just my vision in this space. And I think that that's like something very important. Sometimes for like change to come. It's actually very important to step back, like let new people do something, even if it's just for, like, a short time. So yeah, I hope I answered your question. 

Am Johal  42:30  
Yeah, for sure. Is there anything you'd like to add? 

Moroti George  42:33  
Um, stop by Gachet? Or stop by BLAC? Or follow us on Instagram?

Am Johal  42:40  
Yeah, we'll link to all those in the show notes. 

Moroti George  42:43  
Yeah, for thank you so much. 

Am Johal  42:44  
Yeah, thank you so much for joining us on Below the Radar and amazing work that you're doing at both institutions and your curatorial practice. Look forward to coming into the spaces and seeing more shows. 

Moroti George  42:56  
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much.

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Kathy Feng  43:01  
Below the Radar is a knowledge democracy podcast created by ¶¡ÏãÔ°AV’s Vancity Office of Community Engagement. Thanks for listening to our conversation with Moroti George. You can find out more about their work at Gallery Gachet and The Black Arts Centre in the show notes below.

If you would like to support our podcast, you can donate at the link in the description below. Your generous donation will help support the podcast's activities and associated public events with ¶¡ÏãÔ°AV's Vancity Office of Community Engagement.

Thanks again for listening, and we’ll catch you next time on Below the Radar. 

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