丁香园AV

Award-winning graphic journalist Joe Sacco was at 丁香园AV on November 2, 2016, for an engaging evening in conversation with Chris Brayshaw from Pulp Fiction Books, filmmaker Sobhi Al-Zobaidi, Broken Pencil editor Alison Lang, and Roxanne Panchasi from 丁香园AV鈥檚 History Department (). Sacco is well known for his depictions of historical events in war-torn and conflict-ridden regions, including Palestine, Iraq, and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

He is currently working on a project on the relationship of Indigenous peoples in the Northwest Territories with the resource extraction industry. When asked what made him choose to explore an issue so different than his norm, he explained that a lot of important issues are not covered 鈥渂ecause bullets are not flying.鈥�

In between seminars and a number of media interviews, we were able to catch up with Sacco for a few short minutes to ask him about his phenomenal career.

Much of your reporting covers complex and sensitive topics, particularly wars and military conflicts. In light of this, what is your take on 鈥渙bjective鈥� journalism?

I think it鈥檚 impossible to be an objective journalist. I guess I don鈥檛 really believe in it if there鈥檚 really any issue at stake. If there was a car crash, then reporting what one witness saw and what the other witness saw 鈥� and you don鈥檛 know, you weren鈥檛 there 鈥� and it鈥檚 not sort of an incident that鈥檚 going to make a difference in the world somehow鈥�you can be objective in something like that. You just report what one person said, and what another person said.

But once you get to journalism that鈥檚 about issues of matter, he-said she-said is just not going to work anymore, and reporting that accurately isn鈥檛 going to work anymore. You have to find out what happened. And if you find out what happened, you will tend to sort of say 鈥� it鈥檚 not if there鈥檚 a villain and a victim necessarily all the time 鈥� but sometimes one side has more of the truth than the other side. I don鈥檛 believe in that kind of journalistic trope that, oh i pissed off both sides I must have done something right, or the truth usually lies right in the middle. So, I guess I don鈥檛 believe in [objectivity in journalism].

As a journalist, you open yourself up to a lot of criticism 鈥� some more thoughtful than others. How have you navigated that?

I just don鈥檛 like it [laughing], turn it off. You know, the first reaction is always sort of defensiveness, and sometimes you should be defensive. Maybe you feel the person completely misconstrued what you were trying to do. Other times you can learn from those things. Every now and then that鈥檚 the case. It鈥檚 usually with time, and not that you鈥檙e really analyzing it, but you know that there鈥檚 some truths to that, and it sort of seeps into your head at some point. I mean, criticism isn鈥檛 all valueless, that鈥檚 for sure.

In your opinion, what makes something 鈥渘ewsworthy?鈥�

Boy. I mean, on a very basic level, will it matter to people鈥檚 lives tomorrow? Or are they somehow implicated in something that鈥檚 going on? I could give you many different answers.

Photography by Becky Bonzom

What is your favourite thing you have published, and why?

Bumf 鈥� a satirical comic that no one bought that just came out a year or two ago [2014]. It鈥檚 very unusual, very different from what I draw. I actually enjoyed drawing, as if I was like a kid drawing. You know, after a while drawing is sort of just part of your day, it鈥檚 work, sometimes  you like it, sometimes you don鈥檛. But with Bumf, I just couldn鈥檛 wait to get to the drawing table, and I was drawing a lot of obscene things so that was really fun.

When you are travelling, do you work on the road? Do rough sketches? Take photographs? Could you give us some insight as to your process?

I usually take photographs for reference. Sometimes I鈥檒l sketch if it鈥檚 not appropriate to take a photograph, or it鈥檚 just not wise to take a photograph. But generally it鈥檚 photographs. I ask people I鈥檓 talking to, 鈥渃an I take your photograph?鈥� I tend to spend most of my time, rather than sketching, talking to people and interviewing them 鈥� as you鈥檙e doing now 鈥� but with a mind to asking visual questions. If we鈥檙e talking about what happened to you three weeks ago, and you said you were driving your car, I might say, well, 鈥渨hat kind of car was it?鈥� You know, that kind of question. Because if I have to draw that, then I need something more than 鈥淚 was driving in my car,鈥� perhaps.

So I do a lot of interviews, I keep a pretty rigorous journal when I鈥檓 travelling and working for all those things that happen in between interviews 鈥� because often that鈥檚 where the stories take place is on your way to an interview something happens. After my fieldwork is done and I get back, I write a script basically, I guess I call it a script, and then I just start drawing. And the drawing process can go on for years sometimes.

What鈥檚 the longest you鈥檝e spent on a single project?

Seven years on Footnotes in Gaza.

That leads into our next question. When depicting a scene, how deep into detail do you go? You said you prompt those specific details, like what car were you driving, but how do you use your judgement to capture the specifics?

That鈥檚 a very good question. I don鈥檛 really know exactly when I sort of say, okay that鈥檚 enough. Generally, the bottom line standard for me is would that person whose story I鈥檓 telling recognize that as their story on some level. That鈥檚 the absolute basic. But then, anything you could add on top of that is all for the best. It helps them feel like the story is being told more truly 鈥� not just the essence of the story, but certain visual aspects of it. So it鈥檚 important for me to do a lot of research and I鈥檓 pretty vigilant about doing research. You can鈥檛 always do as much complete research on everything 鈥� you weren鈥檛 there 鈥� but you can do a lot. Basically, [I go] as far as I can go without just debilitating myself.

Are most of the stories you鈥檙e telling about events you were not actually present for?

It鈥檚 a mixture. Right now I鈥檓 doing a story about Indigenous people in the Northwest Territories actually, and people are talking about life in the bush. I wasn鈥檛 there for that, I know nothing about that. I have to rely on photographs, sometimes I鈥檒l contact the person and say, 鈥渟o when you mentioned this tree you used to cut down for this kind of canoe or boat, what kind of tree was it? Because if I鈥檓 going to draw it, that鈥檚 something I can find out, and I better find it out. I鈥檓 sure in drawing this there are going to be certain details that [they鈥檙e going to] say, 鈥渦h, that鈥檚 not exactly right,鈥� but you know I鈥檓 doing the best I can, you know, at least to my satisfaction, which isn鈥檛 always to someone else鈥檚 satisfaction because they鈥檒l know more.

As a young journalist in the 鈥�80s, you were faced by an industry that made it challenging for you to produce pieces that made a difference in the world. This is arguably still a challenged faced by emerging journalists today, particularly working within the constraints of a 24-hour news cycle. What advice would you offer to someone itching to create honest and critical journalism.

That鈥檚 difficult because it鈥檚 often hard to make a living and do that. You know, it鈥檚 easy for me to say, well just get out there and do this and that, but the truth is you kind of have to, and everything is a roll of the dice. It doesn鈥檛 mean that it鈥檚 going to work. But I think you have to take yourself 鈥� I鈥檓 not saying the mainstream鈥�can鈥檛 fashion you as a good journalist, because I鈥檝e met a lot of good mainstream journalists, and often they have the resources 鈥� though less and less so now 鈥� but often they have had the resources to do stories and to go places, to hire translators and all that sort of stuff. But, I guess if it鈥檚 an individual I would say put yourself in a situation, go somewhere with a camera, go somewhere with your notepad, and just see how that feels and give yourself a chance. And you know you could probably in these days of social media and all that you could probably get it out there, but that doesn鈥檛 necessarily pay your bills. And that鈥檚 something that has to be learned little by little along the way. There鈥檚 no great advice for that.